Hi all,

My wife and I are going on our first European adventure at the end of this year and plan to leave to have New Years with friends in maybe Amsterdam (other suggestions for NY hotspots would be appreciated). We are then thinking about hiring a car ($2150 AUD for 2 months) driving south west through Belgium, France to Spain. Then east along south of France into Italy. From here it gets hazy.... I don't know whether to go south into Italy, and, if you can get a ferry over into Greece? I'm kind of at a loss, as how to maximize the time and places visited without rushing...We then want to loop up through Austria, Czech Rep, Poland, and Germany back toward the U.K to start our working holiday... Any suggestions or comments on:

A)The route we hope to take
B)Maximizing stops without compromising enjoyment
C)Camping vs Hotels/Hostels (Price, dangers etc)
D)Weather and other traveling considerations (car vs trains etc)
E)Budget is 60 Euros per person a day.... How far will this stretch for two months? (Car hire money separate)

I will be greatly appreciative of any help!!

Cheers,

Newby

Those are a lot of good questions and I'm sure you'll get loads of feedback on them. I'll take a crack at a few of them.

Amsterdam is one of the craziest places in Europe to spend NYE, so if that's what you are looking for you'll be happy there.

In January it's cold pretty much everywhere in Europe. Most (but not all) campgrounds are closed then.

The good news is that during that time of the year you should be able to go anywhere without reservations in advance. You might choose to reserve a place for the night the day before, but you could actually wing it and still be fine during those months.

Due to the above situation, I'd highly recommend coming up with a general route, and then just taking it one day at a time. If you get burned out moving around, stay put, and if you are getting bored, move on. In those months it should be fine doing it that way, and that will help guarantee you don't go too fast or too slow.

If it's €60 per day for two people not including car hire or even petrol, that's a tight budget, but it could be done if you don't linger in the north, stay only in hostel dorms, and don't go into many museums or other attractions.

Thank you Rawjer for your swift reply...

I guess I should have been more specific with the prices. Car hire is separate from our budget which is 60 Euro per day per person. Ill edit that in the original post. So I guess that makes the budget appropriate now??

I agree with rawjer that 60E a day may be tight given the places you want to go. But, if you cut a place or two out, maybe stick more to Eastern Europe, you'll be better off. You don't want to not get to see some of the treasures of places (i.e. the Uffizzi, or Vatican, or Eiffel Tower) because you have to skimp too much, IMO.

I can only speak to Italy and Spain. I went to Italy last year, and it wasn't cheap. Even 3 of us in a room at a maybe 2 star place was 40-50E each (in Rome), and close to that in Florence and the Cinque Terre. I also like to get to know a place, so would try to find inexpensive or "free" tours (where you tip the tour guide...there are a lot of these in Rome). Add in eating...even when we were budgeting, it wasn't easy to stick to the 60E budget. I guess if we had stayed in dorms it would have been possible, but not very enjoyable!

I am in the midst of planning a trip to Spain, and having a really hard time finding much under 40E/night; even the dorms I am coming across are around 25-30E. This is "high season," but from what I can tell, low season is like one month out of the year...but even those prices aren't much lower.

It will be cold in those places, but that is kind of interesting. It is much more peaceful that time of year, too, because there are fewer visitors.

This ended up being quite long, so I've tried to keep it organized.

Budget
€60/person/day is pretty much in line with what I've spent in western Europe on past trips, and it's more than some people...but it is still restrictive. Your timing is good, though, as prices are lower in winter.

My thoughts are that the budget is workable if:
- you stick to budget accomodation. Hostels in big cities, campgrounds if it's possible, and in some locations pensions/bed & breakfasts can be quite reasonable.
- you cook a lot of your own food
- you spend some time in smaller towns

I have a hard time predicting costs with the car factor. On one hand, it will make camping simpler, and it's easier to carry around food to cook with. On the other hand, daily costs like gas, toll roads, and parking add up. Additionally, if you're going to Greece, the ferry cost with a car will be enormous, and may be prohibited by your rental agreement.

Camping vs Hotels vs Hostels
There seems to be a general fear about hostels by people who haven't used them before. My experience is that there's a VERY small risk of petty theft, and you should take precautions accordingly. But the only real common "danger" is rude roomates who wake you up in the middle of the night, occasionally with...ummm...sex noises. And even that's fairly rare. I've spent many, many nights in hostels, and have been rudely awoken maybe 1 night out of 10, and only once can I remember roomates having sex. I've never had anything stolen, though a roomate did once find his money pouch with passport+credit cards under another roomate's pillow.

Prices are reasonable - I'd guess in the winter, aside from immediately around New Year, you'll always be able to find a place in the €20/bed range and in smaller places it can get down as low as €12. Couples can often get a private room for just a few euros more than two dorm beds, though mostly in further out of the way places...private room premiums tend to be highest in major cities. The other big advantage to hostels is that most have kitchens, so you can save some money on food.

While I've heard good things about camping in Europe (never tried it myself), it is a different type of trip, and campgrounds are far from city centres. Also, in the winter, many of your destinations won't be all that great for camping.

I never recommend hotels. They charge inflated prices and tend to provide very generic rooms...and what do you get out of it? Your bed made up and your bathroom cleaned daily? Woohoo. For the rich, boutique hotels might have some value, since at least they've got character, but I can't afford that, nor would your budget hold out.

There are other classes of accomodation. I'm a big fan of the private home that rents out rooms by the night. It goes by different names in different places - B&B or Pension are the two that come to mind right now, but there's others. They are often great value, sometimes much the same as a hostel, and offer a more personal touch, and usually a nicer room.

Thoughts on Car Hire
If it were me, I'd ditch the car plan, and disperse the money into a higher daily budget. You can still rent cars for a few days here and there, when you have a specific destination in mind.

And I say that not just because of the money factor. While having a car is great in some places where public transit is spotty, most of Europe is very accessible, and the difference between a car holiday and a transit holiday when it comes to relaxation factor is enormous. Driving unfamiliar roads is extremely stressful, and while you're driving, you can't enjoy the scenery much.

Trains are the way to go in my book, particularly long distance. They usually offer the best view, much better than just a boring motorway, and while long distance trains cost more than buses on the same route, they do offer better comfort. On shorter trips the price difference can go either way between buses and trains, depending on where you are, and the buses are more likely to use minor roads that offer good views in and of themselves.

The other problem I have with cars is that I always feel like - I'm paying for it, I better use. And I find when I've got one that I feel like I'm seeing the world go by through a car window.

If you do go for the car, look into getting a GPS. Having your partner navigate by map tends to lead to fights, even if they're fairly good at it. Nothing in real life is ever the same as a map, and this is triply true in older countries with winding streets.

And the Route
As I say for almost every first timer, I think you're trying to see too much in too little time. Some people do like this, and to be honest, you've set aside 2 months to cover ground that some people will do on a bus tour in half that, so you're better than some.

But this many countries - I'm counting 10 which is more than 1 every week - in a short period innevitably leads to running in, seeing the famous stuff, and running out. I'm not a huge fan of this kind of trip, since I don't find it all that fun. I'll see famous things, but then I'll hang around and go for a walk around town, or stay on a farm for a few days. Fun stuff like that.

Again, my thoughts are to pare back on what all you're doing. Pick a few things you really want to see, and try to keep it to between 3 and 5 countries. Even small countries have at least 2 weeks of things to keep you busy. It's also easier on the budget to stay in one place and see more of it, and then move on to somewhere else nearby. Transportation, even just gasing up the car if you rent one, takes its toll.

This is your first trip to Europe, don't treat it like it's your only one. You're going to be working in the UK for probably close to 2 years. You can take short trips while your there, and save your money and do another trip before heading home. There's the occasional person who likes whirlwind schedules, but most of us concur that a slower moving trip is much more enjoyable, and at least I feel like I get a lot more lasting memories from it.

Lastly on route - don't worry about it being a loop. Much as I dislike many things about the budget airline industry, and it grates on me every time someone recommends them as a great and cheap way to get around on a trip, it does make it extremely easy to make quick hops across Europe. Spending €50-€75 euro per person to fly from almost anywhere in western europe to London is not uncommon. Just be wary of the baggage alotment, though, since usually there's high excess weight charges.

Wow... thank you guys for your input...

I just had a large conversation with my brother and sister in-law about their trip through Europe for a honeymoon that was 5 years ago... I never truly realised what a good resource that would have been before we got on topic.... Stupid me!
They covered a lot less ground over 3 months and said it was just the perfect amount of time (so reconfiguring the length of travel and amount of countries is pivotal)... also there budget was higher and time of year better in regards to weather (august-november).... basically we may have to concede the New Year target and work through until February, extend the traveling time (cheaper in good weather to camp in) and enjoy a slower and more luxurious trip... I feel that after we leave to come home a family will be soon after, so this may be our last time to do something like this... so why rush?? Do it properly in good weather with more money and time?? BTW, our working holiday period will be only for about 6 months (we think)...

Cheers for all input guys... it really helps! Peace