BootsnAll Travel Community

It will cost different things in different countries, and there will be different obstacles and different situations in different countries. The world is not the US with one set of regulations and "over there" with another. There is a lot of diversity just within Europe, and also between countries outside Europe.

I'm of a mixed mind because I do agree with you that sometimes you need to just go and take the risk. If you tried to sort everything out beforehand it would be impossible. However I agree with TedKarma that looking at the situation as if there are simple straightforward answers to your questions - as you seem to do by asking how much will it cost and expecting a round figure - do kind of indicate that the reality of many different countries and systems just as complex as in the US has maybe not set in to the degree it needs to.

In many countries in Europe, if you have a regular job, the employer pays your insurance. In some countries it is normal to pay the doctor a "gift" to make sure you get efficient treatment. If you are going as a tourist and don't have residency, it is normal to get some kind of travel insurance, and similarly to US insurance policies, these differ in what they cover.

Some countries in Europe have agreements with each other so that citizens of A can get free medical treatment in country B and vice versa. The US does not participate in such exchanges so accordingly US citizens typically do not benefit from those agreements.

I'm not saying don't go or that it won't work, but there is not one simple answer like your question supposes. If you read the threads on these boards regularly you will notice that the people replying to your questions do have a lot of experience living abroad.

Dismiss the Schengen issue if you want but you might want to look at this thread first:

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threa...347&start=0&tstart=0

Yes, there are consequences to overstaying. Maybe you'll suffer them, maybe you won't but is that worth the risk? As post #9 in the link states "Do some Googling along the lines of "schengen overstay penalties" and see what you find. You'll find plenty of posts from people who overstayed and got out without a problem. You'll also find a worryingly (for you) large number of posts by people who have been caught and penalised."

And note how overstaying could potentially affect your health coverage since that's another issue you've raised.

I'm now living in my third country. In every case, I researched the places ahead of time to know what obstacles I would face, how long I could stay, cost of living etc. Yes, I'm a bit of a planner, but a little information can go a long way to making life a lot easier.

You came to this board asking for advice and input from expert travelers. We've given it and yet you seem determined to ignore it. I've said it before and I'll say it one last time....wait a few months, learn and plan a bit more and then go. You're young, a few more months of waiting isn't a big deal and the worst thing is that you'll have saved a little more money.

quote:

Originally posted by joeaddison79:


Now I no longer believe that living in this country even offers basic security or reasonable odds of having a decent life or ever being able to retire.

so damn many that at this point i'm willing to trek halfway around the world and leave everything and everyone i've ever known just to roll the dice. so wish me luck on throwing a hard six.

At one point years and years ago I was so fed up with America I was seriously considering emigrating to somewhere - had no idea where, but I didn't want to be an American. My sister talked some sense into me. She said, "If you don't like what's happening in America, the worst thing you can do is give up your American passport. As a citizen, you have the right to try to change things. Once you've given that up, you have no say in anything." She was right.

Joe,

I think for the most part everyone here supports your decision to head overseas even if we may disagree on the reasoning. Many of us just think you might be better off doing a bit more research now because you seem to have a few very large misconceptions.

Every country is different, but overstaying the visa may be a bigger issue than you (or your sources) think. I don't even know what your source is talking about in regard to contacting the U.S. consulate overseas. I work for the consulate (or embassy) here in Ukraine and I can tell you that if you contacted us and asked about overstaying your visa we would tell you don't. If you had already overstayed the visa we could probably tell you how much the fine/jail time will be. Once you're imprisoned, we'll be notified and visit you in jail to make sure you're not being tortured and maybe bring you a book to read. That is about all we do. We certainly can't help you escape local immigration laws. If you revoke your citizenship then we won't even talk to you at all.

I would also strongly encourage you to consider buying medical insurance (including evacuation insurance) because you see to have a few misconceptions there as well. Every doctor around the world does not take the Hippocratic Oath. All American doctors don't even take it. So I wouldn't assume by walking in to any hospital around the world that they will help you. In fact, I'd wager many wouldn't if you didn't have the money (especially for something non-life threatening like a broken leg.) If they did treat you, you might just end up worse off for it in a place like Ukraine.

Skobb...I assume your post should read "Every doctor around the world does NOT take the Hippocratic Oath." Otherwise it doesn't quite make sense.

Oops. Yeah. Thanks for catching that.

Post fixed.

Ahhh...I was going to sit this one out, but here I am.

quote:

Originally posted by joeaddison79:
To all the naysayers:

Have you ever tried the kind of travel that I'm proposing? Just going there with some cash, playing by ear, and seeing what happens? Or did you fill out lots of forms, do lots of research, and try to do everything through official channels?

The posters in this thread represent decades and decades of expat living experiences, in two or three dozen countries, on every continent except Antarctica, from illegal to full blow immigrant. Listen! Hands-on, been-there, done-that stuff. Hippies to yuppies. Current and former. (A rather dodgy lot, some might say.) Don't discount their comments too quickly because it is discouraging or not what you want to hear.

Schengen: while I regularly advocate overstaying for travelers, I'd not do so for those seeking to live permanently in Schengen. Penalties aside, you'd be living in the shadows. Think nobody hears you in America? Try it as an illegal alien under constant thread of losing it all in a moments notice.

You've mentioned that you are ethnically half-something-or-other, yes? Unless you are pasty white, you very well may find Europe untolerably xenophobic and racist to live in. Especially to the east. Especially if you don't have much cash. Living in a foreign country results in more interaction with...the less 'worldly'.

Yes, Western Europe is politically to the left of America. But it is no liberal utopia. I wish it was. An improvement over much in the US, but not absolute. Keep your expectations to a minimum, would be my advice.

If you are young enough, have no real commitments (kids, etc.), understand the risks, and are just a stubborn bastard, then, well...jump in and do it. A little time in the pokey, a chronic desiese (Hep, AIDS, TB, ...), tens of thousands of dollars of debt, a missing limb, a permanent ban from entering the EU, whatever...it all could make for a good story some day if things don't work out. Shit happens.

But if you are looking for something close to a safe ending, which is what I am reading (no money + no clue + US passport = dreamy socialist life in Europe...sarcasm!) then settle for shorter term goals. Maybe you'll just bumble along into something along the way--that's how I personally got started. Just go travel, work some menial jobs, and hang out...and keep on the look out for opportunities as they arise.

Health insurance: If you are under 30, and have all your jabs, you could probably wing it for a while safely...if you have family that would bail you out of a horrible situation if need be.

And lastly, my most negative and caustic remark: I think you are overvaluing yourself to potential employers here. Babe in the woods. A fresh liberal arts education qualifies you to wait tables. Entry level employment is a long term investment by employers, and foreigners are risky. If you had five years experience in chosen profession, then maybe things would be different. Now? Borderline worthless. Seriously.

I think your best bet would be either a) BUNAC/similar scheme, or b) to sit tight, get a TOEFL, and do some proper research. Then make your move. Once you are on the ground legitimately, for at least a year, solidify your residency. Then move on to what you want to do.

Good luck to you, regardless.

quote:

Originally posted by Stoo: The posters in this thread represent centuries and centuries of experiences

Has Static been posting in this thread?

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(A rather dodgy lot, some might say.)

Oh, I see, you were talking about me.

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Don't discount their comments too quickly because it is discouraging or not what you want to hear.

x2.

Ted, EMH, Kate, Skobb, and the like have offered valuable observations. And, remember, we too were once young and unschooled in the ways of Midgard, so our advice is doubly apt.

quote:

crypto-fascist

Wow. I haven't heard that silly term used since it was last lampooned in an episode of Red Dwarf. I can't decide if I hate it or love it, but I applaud your courageous attempt to bring it back into conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by Not the First Continental Op:

quote:

(A rather dodgy lot, some might say.)

Oh, I see, you were talking about me.

Oh, I'd include half-nine, NTFT and myself into the demographic. And Skobb works for the devil incarnate, ultimately, for the next hundred days or so, which muddies him.

But the rest are down right sweethearts.

Ok, lots of good advice. Before I get to my options, let me clear up the race/political views confusion.
I'm not a half-blood. I'm a mixed-blood. When talking about American Indians, you have full-bloods, half-bloods, and mixed-bloods (anything else). Basically, I'm mostly white, but my grandfather was an Indian. I have blond hair and blue eyes. He did not.
Politically/economically I'm not a socialist, I'm just sympathetic to socialism. I'm an anarchist. Whole different game.

Back to the subject matter...

So here are the options I'm considering:

1. Head over there as planned. Take a map that shows Schengen/non-Schengen countries. Spend 90 days checking out Schengen, then 90 days non-Schengen. Repeat until I'm broke. What obstacles will I encounter doing this (other than money)?

2. Apply for a student visa or something. I understand that student visas allow you to work part-time and are good for years instead of months, but do I have to be a student to get a student visa (is there a loophole around attending a school)? What is the easiest Euro country to get a student visa for (or any other long-term visa)?

3. Head over there, after a few months head to an American consulate and get my options from them. So I'll probably need to bring maps and lists of U.S. embassy/consulate.

4. Overstay schengen and just try not to get arrested. Live off the radar, maybe do street theater or live in a commune... ok, probably not my best option.

NOTE: I'm not renouncing my U.S. citizenship quite yet... for one thing they probably wouldn't let me (apparently it's nearly impossible to go "countryless" no matter where you're from)

Also, I'll be stopping at every English-language paper I can find to beg for work (because 1. I'll need it eventually and 2. If I can find it, they'll fill out the forms to let me stay). so I'm bringing resumes and writing clips.

On a different note, I'm doing this for hundreds of reasons. Reason #17 is to protest globalization. See, when corporations cross borders they get tax breaks (at least in this country), political clout, and often a green light to damage the environment/exploit the people. But when a person tries to cross borders either to work or live or just travel around... hell, he gets hassled and he's at the total mercy of others and their organizations.

quote:

I'm not a half-blood. I'm a mixed-blood. When talking about American Indians, you have full-bloods, half-bloods, and mixed-bloods (anything else). Basically, I'm mostly white, but my grandfather was an Indian. I have blond hair and blue eyes.

Sounds "white enough" to avoid problems like I mention.

quote:

I'm an anarchist. Whole different game.

OK, the maybe you are missing something on Europe: they are all about government involvement in your lives here. In many countries, like Switzerland, residents have to register with the police. The coppers keep tabs on how many people are registered in each domicile. Work it from there...

You want to be a European anarchist? Find some fashionable rich Italian kids, crash at their place, and hang out May Day parades. Maybe one of them will put you up. (sarcasm again, sorry)

quote:

1. Head over there as planned. Take a map that shows Schengen/non-Schengen countries. Spend 90 days checking out Schengen, then 90 days non-Schengen. Repeat until I'm broke. What obstacles will I encounter doing this (other than money)?

Schengen boarders are shifting, too quickly for paper maps. You'll want to be more expert in this topic. The rules are not black-n-white, and the rules are not enforced consistently. By the time you figure them out, you'll know more than most of the immigrations line officers.

quote:

2. Apply for a student visa or something. I understand that student visas allow you to work part-time and are good for years instead of months, but do I have to be a student to get a student visa (is there a loophole around attending a school)? What is the easiest Euro country to get a student visa for (or any other long-term visa)?

www.bunac.org will get you into the UK, with no job, for six months. Other countries permits may very well require that you be enrolled to work or reside. Devil is in the details. Country specific, too.

quote:

3. Head over there, after a few months head to an American consulate and get my options from them. So I'll probably need to bring maps and lists of U.S. embassy/consulate.

An American consulate is not going to tell you anything practical, other than "go home". You've been watching too many cold war movies if you insist differently, despite a skobb telling you differently.

quote:

4. Overstay schengen and just try not to get arrested. Live off the radar, maybe do street theater or live in a commune... ok, probably not my best option.

It can be done short term. Not good for permanent residency dreams.

quote:

NOTE: I'm not renouncing my U.S. citizenship quite yet... for one thing they probably wouldn't let me (apparently it's nearly impossible to go "countryless" no matter where you're from)

Regardless, the IRS claims dibbs on your income for the next 10 years. It's a big step, check it out in detail first.

quote:

Also, I'll be stopping at every English-language paper I can find to beg for work (because 1. I'll need it eventually and 2. If I can find it, they'll fill out the forms to let me stay). so I'm bringing resumes and writing clips.

That resume is going to cause you problems, at some point, crossing boarders. Immigrations people keep an eye out for people like you...a CV is an obvious indicator. Throughout the world, English-speaking journalists, writers, scribes...whatever...they are like cockroaches: all over the place, nothing special. Unless you have some super groovy Avant-garde gonzo angle we don't know about, you'd do as well showing up in Brazil to play footie for a living.

quote:

On a different note, I'm doing this for hundreds of reasons. Reason #17 is to protest globalization.

Ahhh...now that is going to get you on lots of databases. Photographs, finger prints, detentions, etc. Shit, they are going to boot your ass out of Europe in less than a year, is my guess. You have no rights here. None. You have no right to visit any nation. Big brother was born in Europe.

omg, this is getting too funny. I need to stop...a laughing fit is coming on...

EMH: You mentioned you did research every time before making the move. I wish this were an option for me but I don't know what country I'd like to settle in, and I won't know until I see a few.

Skobb,

If I were to show up at your consulate, I wouldn't be asking about how to overstay my visa/if I can overstay. I'd be asking about how to extend it/what legal options I'd have... Why would I go to a consulate and tell them that I intend to break the law? Look, I may be young and stupid, but I'm not that young and stupid. About medical insurance... I'll definitely look at it.

Stoo,

Yes, a college degree is basically worthless now. I figure it only lets me do three things:
1. teach English (if I learn basic fluency in the native language first and apply many months in advance)
2. Get my foot in the door for a crappy entry level job (writing for someone... maybe obits section if they have one) if I'm willing to apply to several hundred places
3. Apply to grad school. This might actually be an option, but I'm sure the rules differ not only from country to country but from school to school (and I have no desire to go back to school... though I'd willing to if it's the only way).
Look, I know the degree isn't worth much. I wanted it because it's one of the few minimal securities I can have and it wasn't too difficult to obtain. Minimal.

Cont-op:
I don't know what country you're from, man, but crypto-facist is a great term, and I was a boyscouts for a month
so I know all about crypto-facism.


To all:

I can see your current country listed on your posts, but what do you do there, and generally what's life like for you (please include cost of living). what are the people like? Is it true that in the Ukraine the streets are paved with gold, the government gives you money, and all the women are topless, beautiful, and easy?

It's your life, and you have the right to do what you want to do. But I want to stand up for the USA....even though it doesn't allow my partner to immigrate and therefore keeps me an expat; even though it is so in-fashion to be anti-American. I just love the fact that in the USA you can re-invent yourself, start over, move to Vegas if your life in, say, Houston sucks. I love the land of second chances. I know I haven't been everywhere, but I've never seen any country like that.

You're young--see what's out there. But like I said before, I think the USA needs anarchists like you.

Stoo,

That "Reason #17" thing was supposed to be a joke...

Didn't realize that English-speaking journalists were such a problem... maybe I'll look for a different gig...

I already know about the IRS and the income thing...

I don't want to be a European anarchist. I am an anarchist. I want to move to Europe.

And how can I possibly bone up on Schengen border knowledge if the borders are constantly shifting and even the border patrol officers don't know the rules? If EU border policy and rules are nearly as chaotic as you claim why is it inconceivable that I slip under the radar? Moreover, if the rules aren't black and white, then how do they expect to enforce them and how do they expect me to obey them?

Stoo, you seem bitter and incredibly cynical. What's going on in Zurich?

And what exactly is wrong with going over there, doing reconnaissance for a few months, and then improvising?

quote:

I don't know what country I'd like to settle in, and I won't know until I see a few.

Exactly the point!

See, I definitely think you need to go. For no other reason than it will give you a lot of valuable perspective, both about what's out there, and what the US is like, really like, relative to other countries.

quote:

And what exactly is wrong with going over there, doing reconnaissance for a few months, and then improvising ?

It's the improvising part that has everybody here blowing whistles. Who knows, it might work out well for you, but there are a whole lot of reasons why it more likely wouldn't.

So, if you look at the trip more as a reconnaissance mission, find where you think you might want to stay, then return to the US and figure out a way to make it happen, you have far better odds at success.

Or you could just roll the dice and hope for a hard six. You might get lucky! Either way, I think you need to get out there. And seriously, good luck.

P.S. Don't listen to Stoo. I'm not dodgy.

Okay, let me explain why I think a little research ahead of time is essential. You have limited time and limited money. You also have no idea how long it will take to find a place that will resonate with you. Europe is a big place. You may end up burning through a significant amount of your savings before you find a place you love. And then that place may not love you back...maybe it will be near impossible for you to earn a living there or rent an apartment or there will be some other reason it won't work. So then it's back to the drawing board and then you're burning through more of your savings.....

Let me just give you a couple of examples of things I found in my research in choosing another country to live. I was seriously considering Columbia but found out that it's really difficult for a foreigner to rent an apartment there. So I decided not to go there. I was also considering Panama City. But I found out that rich foreigners had pushed up the price of rental housing so that I'd end up paying about the same as in the US. So I crossed Panama City off my list.

Certainly there must be some places in Europe that appeal to you more than others. Make a list of your top 10 or 20 places. Do a bit of research to find out your chances of finding a job, renting an apartment, staying long-term, etc and then narrow the list down. Leave with a list of your top 5-10 places and go to those places first. Given time and money limitations, I think your chances of success are much greater if you do a bit of research first. Obviously it's your choice, but if you just show up and try to wing it, I think your chances of success are much, much more limited than if you do some planning first. And you do want to succeed don't you????? Your other option is to do what NTFT suggests and take an initial trip as a recon mission, then head back to the US and find a way to make it work.

As for teaching English, that will be very hard in Western Europe since there are so many other Europeans wanting to do the same and they'll get preference. Your options for that sort of employment will be greater in Eastern Europe. Again though, things will vary by country. Also, I'm not sure why you assume you need to know the local language first. Even if you have a gift for learning languages, it'll take a year minimum to learn another language. And many employers won't care. If anything, it'll hurt your job chances since some places believe in total immersion and only want their English language teachers speaking English to their students.

As the OP mentioned looking for newspaper work . . .

I worked as a desk editor of an English newspaper here for a while. The two guys who shared my office - neither lasted long. They just whined about the LONG hours and peanuts for pay. (newspapers are famous for bad wages and long hours). They also complained about how they don't come across the seas to sit in an office and stare at a computer screen 12 hours a day . . .

The working week here is 5.5 days a week, Mondays and Tuesdays were 12-hour days and I could go on and on and on.

BTW, the jobs were heavily contested and very competitive, but after only about four months there I was the third most senior of seven editors. NO ONE stayed long.

And if you are looking for enlightened management styles with "team work" well . . . I didn't see much that either. Just the new Mercedes the owner turned up with every few months.

Grunt work ain't all it is reputed to be.

quote:

Originally posted by joeaddison79:
Stoo, you seem bitter and incredibly cynical. What's going on in Zurich?

Oh, no...not at all. Stubborn and willfully naive posts get me all snarky like. And, I'm just an abrasive sort when the mood suites. You'll get over it, I'm sure.

quote:

And what exactly is wrong with going over there, doing reconnaissance for a few months, and then improvising?

Reconnaissance and improvisation are very much what I've advocated. We're all just trying to edumacate you on what you will and won't find, since you asked. Your preconceptions are the big problem here, along with the dismissive attitude towards expat veteran's posts.

We've drawn you a map with notes that read "here be dragons", but you don't seem interested.

quote:

P.S. Don't listen to Stoo. I'm not dodgy.

Yes you are! I know it!!! But not as dodgy as Uncle Coop.