BootsnAll Travel Community

Ok, so i've been filing thru the threads here and getting a lot of useful info! I am considering moving to Italy in the next couple of years. I am not eligible for dual citizenship because my father is a few years too young (thanks for all the info Co-Op) but I can gain citizenship by living there for 3 years, which i think is def. doable. I will be self employed most likely making something similar to paper mache ducks and I will dissolve my S-corp before leaving.

I could've missed this answer in the previous threads but I was wondering - how do i stay in Italy for that long? Do I need to inform them that i'll be working there? will they care? what will i need to do to start the 3 year time clock for citizenship right away? I have also thought of maybe going to grad school there but I don't know if I could do it that way or or not. I would prefer to just have my online business. So besides freeing myself from US tax liability what do i need to do on the Italian end to be there legally? I don't know how I would get a work visa for my own business there. Boyfriend is a writer and would most likely still be working for US based newspapers, etc but not on a visa - just freelance. Any advice would be great - Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Littlemustard:
I could've missed this answer in the previous threads but I was wondering - how do i stay in Italy for that long? Do I need to inform them that i'll be working there? will they care? what will i need to do to start the 3 year time clock for citizenship right away? I have also thought of maybe going to grad school there but I don't know if I could do it that way or or not.

Well, to obtain legal residency you will have to let them know you're there. And to get a legitimate, long-term visa you're going to have to have a reason for being there that long. Here's the thing, I don't *think* that the time spent residing in Italy on a student visa will go towards the 3 year visa clock. For that, you'd need another reason to be living there, such as...

a.) Having a corporate-sponsored job in Italy. And, eventually, you and/or your employer will have to show why your job can't be done by an Italian.

b.) Having family there. Of any kind, really. An aunt who says she needs you there. An Italian spouse. Etc.

c.) A religious reason to be there. Italy is one of the few European countries where one can still get away with this, but the "religious reasons" option is still a valid excuse for residing in Italy, and remains on the books for those looking for long-term visas. A sudden, profound renewal of interest in the Catholic faith, verified by a clergy member either from the U.S. or Italy, and a specific agenda for exploring said faith in Italy, can still be used as a reason for applying for a long-term visa. Remember, however, that this is a bureaucracy, and you will have to be very specific as to why you *need* to visit every church and cathedral in Italy.

You can, of course, stay in Italy indefinitely illegally. Honestly, I'd say the majority of U.S. expats in the country do just that. (Not to mention Tunisians, Albanians, and Senegalese.) But, obviously, you won't be able to get legal citizenship going this route. And you are in danger of being summarily kicked out if you piss off your landlord, neighbor, or the local popo. (I know an American who lived in Rome illegally for 17 years without issue, only to one day answer a knock at the door and find himself back in New England five days later.)

As for U.S. tax liability, you don't have to prove to the IRS that the Italians consider you a legal resident. You simply have to prove to the IRS that the U.S. considers Italy your legal tax home. Two completely different issues. If you haven't already done so, read through the Expat sticky in this thread. Stoo, Sophie, and a number of others give good examples of different scenarios and how they impact your tax liability. Provided you don't find a job in Italy, as a self-employed tax payer your situation will likely resemble my own.

Edit:

One more thing. Where are you looking at staying? Some places make easier long-term residencies than others, both legally and illegally.

NOTE TO READERS: THE OPTIONS IN THIS THREAD ARE UNIQUE TO ITALY, AND DO NOT NECESSARILY APPLY TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE E.U..

I could be all wrong here, and Op correct me if I am, but we were looking at some real estate publications in Greece and it sounded like that if you buy property in an EU country it gives you the right to be there and live there. And if I remember correctly, it said something about after 5 years of being a property owner you were eligible to become an EU passport holder.

Co Op is this ringing any bells with you?

No, you're absolutely right, Sophie. I didn't even consider recommending it. My subconscious hatred of Italian bureaucracy is probably why. And it doesn't get any more bureaucratic than Italian real estate purchases.

In Italy, you've really got to want it, as it's a pain in the ass for an American without a European partner. You will need two to three lawyers: an American familiar with international purchases, a notaio (a glorified witness who you must have to complete the purchase but who doesn't*really* work for you or advise you), and, perhaps, an avvocato (a local Italian lawyer who can do the advising for you). This is in addition to the realtor and, if applicable, the geometra (surveyor/architect.) You'll then need to go through a lengthy, multi-stage contract system. Altogether, the fees alone will cost between 15-20% of the purchase price.

For the amount of money one would likely spend to buy a single piece of Italian property (as a non EU citizen), it would be cheaper to simply hire a tax lawyer, create your own Italian corporation (around $5k), and wait the two years it takes before that corporation can legally sponsor your Italian residency. (Which is another option I left out above, but one which is feasible for many.)

Hmmm. Ok. lots of interesting info here. Well i do have relatives in Italy but i'm not sure how into it they would be to say something like that. I was raised catholic but do not consider myself catholic now, however maybe i could use that as a reason if i had to. The Italian corporation sounds the most feasible. In order to do that how do you go about filing for it, etc? And will they ask they you have a long term visa in order to set up a corporation or can just any regular joe set one up? As for the real estate option - yeah that really IS expensive. That is FAR beyond even buying in Mexico. You could set up a whole business buying homes in your name and transferring them to americans to save them $$. Although i'm sure there's a million rules in place to prevent that plus you'd really have to protect yourself.

however is it cheaper to buy in another country that is part of the EU? then you could still be there legally and hsould be able to live in other countries in the EU legally as well correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Littlemustard:The Italian corporation sounds the most feasible. In order to do that how do you go about filing for it, etc?

PM me. I might be able to put you in touch with someone.

quote:

however is it cheaper to buy in another country that is part of the EU? then you could still be there legally and hsould be able to live in other countries in the EU legally as well correct?

Yes and yes. I am not as familiar with other EU real estate experiences as I am with Italy's, but I can tell you for certain that the process is much simpler in the Netherlands and a number of other EU member states. Especially when it comes to purchasing small flats.

quote:

Originally posted by Continental Op:

As for U.S. tax liability, you don't have to prove to the IRS that the Italians consider you a legal resident. You simply have to prove to the IRS that the U.S. considers Italy your legal tax home. Two completely different issues. If you haven't already done so, read through the Expat sticky in this thread. Stoo, Sophie, and a number of others give good examples of different scenarios and how they impact your tax liability. Provided you don't find a job in Italy, as a self-employed tax payer your situation will likely resemble my own.

As far as tax status goes, as long as you're actually out of the US for 330 days during the year, you can consider the first $80,000 or so of your income free from US taxes based on what is called the "Physical Presence Test"

The instructions to IRS form 2555, where this is explained, are here

quote:

Originally posted by Haci Richard:

As far as tax status goes, as long as you're actually out of the US for 330 days during the year, you can consider the first $80,000 or so of your income free from US taxes based on what is called the "Physical Presence Test"

Yeah, Stoo and I got into an exchange, albeit a loving one, about this a a while back. For me, as a self-employed individual, the process has always been as simple as you mention. For others, defining a foreign tax home has proven more complicated.

Should this thread refer to Italy in the title? Something like "Another Moving Abroad Question re: Italy"

And maybe some tags? More good info. Hate to have it be difficult to call up with a search.

quote:

Originally posted by Not the first Travis:
Should this thread refer to Italy in the title? Something like "Another Moving Abroad Question re: Italy"

Or....

Moving to Mexico - An informative article regarding staying in Mexico for the long haul.
Starting a business in Mexico - DoingBusiness.com's checklist of steps and expenses when forming a Sociedad Anónima (That's Spanish for "Evil Corporation.")

Now the thread doesn't need a title change, but it does still require a "tiger penis" tag.

Ahhhh. I feel so included now! Thanks for the links, Co-Op! I had read that first one....that site it's on has quite a few helpful expats in their forums for anyone looking for Mexico info. (It's a fee-based subscription site, but it's already proven to be worth it to me.)

Hadn't seen the other link. Thanks!

wow - from now on i will be sure to include Tiger Penis in all my tags.... hahaha.....