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Libby recommended setting up a second harry potter thread for discussions about the book, and I think its a great idea.

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Even though Snape's true colors were shown at the very beginning, I kept trying to understand Dumbledore's reasoning and kept trying to believe that Snape wasn't going to turn on the Order. I guess that I fell into the same trap as Dumbledore.

Does anyone know who has the initials R.A.B.? I've been wracking my brain trying to figure this out, as I think that maybe the character has already been introduced, and that it will probably be important in the next book.

Also, I'm a bit surprised about Ron and Hermione quitting school with Harry. Hmmm.

I've got more I could say, but I'll wait to here everyone else's comments...

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say Dumbledore isn't dead.

First off, Snape had no choice but to kill him because of the charm he cast on himself and Malfoy. I don't doubt he told Dumbledore that. I also don't doubt that he and Dumbledore arranged for something to be done if this happened. Maybe he split his own soul! Didn't the thing that RAB leave behind say something about him destroying what was there originally (meaning he was on the good side0? Anyway...I think Snape's gone deep undercover.

I also think I know what Snape told Dumbledore and what happened to make him leave the Death Eaters. I think Snape was in love with Lily and he was devastated when what he learned (the prophesy) was used to kill her.

Am I crazy?

OH..and I love that Tonks got with Lupin. Two of my favs.

Hmmm.... I'm not sure if Dumbledore would split his soul, since its considered really dark magic. Hoever, I could see him still being alive. Actually, when I got to the part where Harry pulls the letter out of his pocket, I was so excited that I was skimming a bit. And for a minute I thought that maybe it had something to do with Dumbledore's brother - but that's a long shot.

I was also thinking for a second that the initials were R/A.S. and not R.A.B. - and thought that it might have something to do with the new minister - an ex-auror.

Its all total conjecture (and I've already proved myself wrong).

Another thing - how did Dumbledore get to the bottom of the tower? I didn't notice him falling out or being thrown out of a window or anything.

I finished the book late on Wednesday. I really should have gone to bed earlier, but couldn't put it down. I think it's my favorite of all the books thus far. It was even darker than #5, yet Harry didn't come off as quite so whiny. This one actually shocked me in a number of different places. Most notably when Draco stomped on Harry's face.

I also think that this isn't the end of Dumbledore, and that it's not likely that he would split his soul. Remember that he's been hanging around that pheonix since book 1. I also wouldn't be surprised that he knew Snape would have to kill him, and possibly even asked him to. His last line was 'Snape, Please' which can be interpreted in a number of different ways.

Any ideas on who R.A.B. might be? The one name that matches is Regulus Black, though again I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be something totally different.

Those are some good points... The phoenix is certainly going to play a part in the last book.

I'm also looking forward to what is behind the dais (ffrom book 5). I thought that we would find out in this book, but I guess we'll have to wait for the next one.

quote:

Originally posted by Michelle@yourlife:
Does anyone know who has the initials R.A.B.?

I doubt it will be all that important, since the note indicated that he was nearing the end of his life. My guess is that it's Burke, since he would likely have known about the necklace, and I suspect would have felt somewhat responsible for the creation of the Horcruxes.

quote:

Also, I'm a bit surprised about Ron and Hermione quitting school with Harry.

I'm surprised any of them are quitting. That forces a complete change of structure for the books, since they always focused around a year of school.

You really are going to think I'm truly crazy.. Here goes...I posted on the other HP board..but here is where I should be.

Firstly, I think Dumbledore is still alive. My reasons being..

1)he pretty much is the shit.
2)he would never plead for his life, he has too much pride.
3)he apparently couldn't protect himself because he didn't have his wand..Dumbledore does not need his wand to practice magic...
4)I think that that potion he drank while trying to retrieve the Horcrux helped prevent the Aveda Kedavra curse.
5) That whole thing of Dumbledore dying was a set-up because Dumbledore trusts Snape, he knew when Tom Riddle was a young child that there was something off about him..yet he didn’t see bad in Snape? Doesn’t really make sense..
6)How did he know to petrify Harry before Malfoy burst through the door?
7)He asked specifically for Snape maybe because Snape had let Dumbledore know about the unbreakable vow..and it was all a set-up in order to save Harry's life.

Yeah I’m pretty much taking a whole lot of guesses here.. skeptical to say the least.


Ratguy when I read the initials RAB the first name that came to mind was Regulus Black as well..we will all just have to wait and see I guess.

If they don't return to school I will thoroughly miss the Quidditch matches, I do hope they return as what will become of all the children who are wizards? Will the wizarding race just die off or will they go to other Wizard schools? Hogwarts was apparently the best of the lot.

You'd think by the way I was discussing this that this is real life..no no, I'm just kind of sort of a lot addicted.

1)Regulus (Alphard?) Black
2)Dumbledore's dead. But if you read the scene carefully again, you'll find that Snape's true allegiances are still very much up in the air.

Dumbledore's Patronis is a Phoenix. That has to come into play at some point.

Dumbledore says Severus Please....

That could be - Please do what we talked about... or Please spare me. I'm not really sure.

As far as Hogwarts closing... I don't think it will close. and I don't think that Harry, Hermione, and Ron will be totally gone from it even if they do quit.

We'll see.

The first thing I thought of when I saw R.A.B. was Regulus Black, too.

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but I'm not convinced Sirius is dead:

1)Harry wasn't allowed to see his body
2)He got nailed in the chest with a spell, but it's unknown what spell it was, could be killing, could not.
3)He was the closest thing to a parent Harry had.......it seems a little gruesome that all 3 of them (mom, dad, Sirius) would all be killed off

Dumbledore-there have been some pretty good points brought up re: Is he dead or not? that I'd never considered before. But I still think he's dead, I don't think he'd use a horcrux, and Snape used Avada Kedavra on him, plus in this case Harry was able to see the body. I think Snape showed who he works for when he killed Dumbledore.

I was surprised that Dumbledore was killed, though. I thought she'd have him be injured in the final book, and in the hospital or something (but alive), so Harry would have to fight Voldemort all by himself.

I'm definietly at a loss for what may happen next. I mean wihtout the help and knowledge of Dumbledore how is Harry going to know what to do to try and find and/or kill Voldemort? He's a smart kid, but everything hes done thus far has pretty much been through the help of others.

Dee, I think that's exactly why the author killed off Dumbledore.

See, everyone had their money on it being Dumbledore. I also think he's gone for good - he's given Harry a task to do (the horcruxes) and has helped him receive the information that he requires.

I'm a little surprised that Harry didn't confide in McGonagall, however. I think that he'll need the help of the Order in the next book, so why would he not tell her? I think that McGonagall has shown she's trustworthy - I'm wondering how the next book will go since he no longer has a true adult "guiding" figure in his life.

I've wondered about Sirius too... although I also think we've seen the last of him.

As for the Snape question: sonnetstitches is right about the fact that you could see Snape's loyalties questioned. I doubt that Dumbledore would want to die, however, because he still had the tasks to do. I think Snape is loyal to Voldemort now... there's no way he would be accepted by the Order of the Phoenix or trusted again.

I'm wondering if RAB is someone that we haven't heard about yet? I thought the same thing when I saw the RB part (Regulus Black), but it wouldn't be unlike JK Rowling to introduce new characters!

There was a line near the end that said as long as a student wants to learn, there is a place for them at Hogwart's. I sincerely doubt that the school would close!

She said that eagle-eyed readers would get hints of how the next book is going to go in the ending of this book. I've reread it and can't get a thing out of it. Not fair.

Maybe it's the Phoenix Harry sees that she's talking about

Ok... I just finished re-reading (yes, I am that much of a loser)... I think that both Sirius and Dumbledore are dead. But, i think that the veil at the dais will come into play regarding Sirius. Also, Dumbledore's photo has already appeared in the headmaster's room, so he is probably dead. But, becuase the photo is there, I think that Harry will be able to consult with him, just like Dumbledore consulted with other former headmasters.

As far as confiding in McGonagall- I think its much more likely that he would confide in Lupin.

Can I toss out a theory?

Dumbledore drank poison he said would kill him. He then told Harry he needed Snape. Maybe he knew that the Poison would kill him no matter what Snape did. That he did that so Snape wouldn't actually be responsible for his death.

Sound crazy?

Ok... that's a possibility.

Now, do you think that Dumbledore knew that Snape was going to make the unbreakable bond before he did it... or do you think Snape acted first and then Dumbledore had to find a way to fix it....

I just typed this seriously long post and the board ATE it! Arrgh!

OK, here's my huge HP geek theory post again:

I'm not sure Snape knew what he was getting himself into. I don't think he knew about "the plan" when Narcissa and Bella came to visit; I think he might have been bluffing to give himself some leverage and make himself appear important (and also in order to find out what the plan actually was). I also am not sure Bella knew what the plan was, either, because she hints that Voldemort doesn't tell her squat anymore. Also, that entire speech he gives to them is pretty fishy. First of all, why give all that away at the beginning of the book unless we're going to find out there's more to it later on? Every single thing he said could be used just as easily to prove his loyalty to the Order as to Voldemort -- except the Bones and Vance murders, and, as we have zero knowledge of the details of either of those, he could actually be lying about that.

Why make an unbreakable vow to protect Draco, when Voldemort obviously considers Draco expendable? A true death eater would not put his life on the line to protect anybody, because he would value saving his own skin above all things. Therefore, it's possible he's protecting Draco on someone else's orders (i.e. Dumbledore's) rather than of his own volition. All he had to say was "The Dark Lord's word is law, and he wants Draco to do it, period. Get out of my house or I'll report you as a traitor."

Also, the part where he twitches is when he's halfway finished with the vow and Narcissa says "Will YOU do it?" It's almost as though he didn't see that coming; but now it's too late to back out.

And, it seems Dumbledore knows about this. When Harry tries to tell him, Dumbledore says he's not shocked and that he knows more about the situation than Harry can imagine.

Then, there's that argument between Snape and Dumbledore that Hagrid overhears; that Snape doesn't want to do something and Dumbledore says he has no choice. What could that be about? If Snape really was going to betray the order and go running to Voldemort, WHY would he trumpet it to Dumbledore? Surely he'd be playing up his loyalty so that his betrayal would be an even bigger surprise! So that argument almost has to be about something else -- perhaps about fulfilling the terms of the unbreakable vow. Perhaps Dumbledore has told Snape he has to go through with it, since Snape will die otherwise, and Dumbledore has decided that Snape, like Harry, is "younger and less expendable" than Dumbledore. (Notice how he keeps saying that to Harry at the end; as though he knows he's about to meet his end.)

Then there's Dumbledore's hand, which was injured either getting or destroying the ring/Horcrux. He tells Harry that Snape saved his life but couldn't save his hand. Why didn't Snape let him die? It would have been easy. Also, what does Hermione say when she first sees Dumbledore's hand? That there are some injuries that can't be healed and some potions that don't have antidotes.

And if Snape knows what caused the injury to Voldemort's hand, he almost had to have known how it happened -- maybe even knew about the Horcruxes. And if so, he just let Dumbledore destroy pieces of Voldemort's soul. Would a death eater do that?

Also, Dumbledore tells Harry, when they set off to find the locket, that "when I leave here tonight, the school will be protected" in some great, mysterious way. He doesn't say "when we leave." He says "I." Could that be a foreshadowing of how the school will be protected when he dies?

Then there's the fact that Dumbledore drinks a gallon of unknown poison, and begins to get weaker and weaker, and does so next to Inferi-infested waters. Could that be the "potion with no antidote"? If whatever happened to his hand was irreversible, imagine what taking something vile internally could do to your whole body? Could it actually turn the drinker into an Inferi, and if so, would an avada kedavra actually be saving the drinker from zombie-dom? When he drinks it, he tells Harry to force it down his throat. She chooses her words carefully and tells us Harry was "hating himself, and repulsed by what he was doing." Then Dumbledore shrieks "KILL ME!" When Snape actually comes at Dumbledore to kill him, it says his face is etched with "hatred and revulsion." Coincidence? Dunno. Red herring? Maybe. But it's an interesting parallel, don't you think? And also, why the heck is Snape acting so miserable? This is his moment of triumph! Why isn't he running around gloating that Dumbledore was a stupid, weak, gullible sucker and that all the Order members are mincemeat?

There's also the fact that he and Dumbledore are both Legilimens, and here they're staring at each other. What could they be communicating that Harry can't see?

Dumbledore wouldn't plead for his life -- not the man who says, repeatedly, that there are worse things than death, and that death is even a great adventure. Could he be pleading "Do what you have to do for the cause?" or "Do it quickly before the potion does something worse?" (Or could he just be pleading "Don't kill me for the sake of my students?" or "Don't kill me for the sake of your own soul?" both of which are possible, I admit.)

Dumbledore is the one who gets Snape into this mess in the first place, after all. Snape, in every other battle, has always had a good excuse not to show up and take sides. Harry and Dumbledore are walking into a building with the Dark Mark overhead. They know there are death eaters in there -- and yet Dumbledore tells Harry to go wake Snape up. If Snape shows up in a hand-to-hand battle, he's obviously going to have to fight for one side or the other and blow his cover. Why put him in that position unless you have a prior arrangement? If you want a potion antidote, why not get Slughorn, who obviously knows (or at least suspects) that Dumbledore is out hunting Horcruxes?

Then there's the fact that the Defense job is cursed -- so Dumbledore hires Snape for it knowing that he's going to be gone at the end of the year. (Interesting foreshadowing that Harry says early on that he doesn't expect Snape to last, either and personally, he's "hoping for another death" to end the term. He gets his wish, though obviously not the way he thought.)

And what's with the potions book? Why would you leave a book that you scribbled all your own tips and spell inventions, in a classroom for anyone to find? Maybe he wanted Harry to have it. Why? Why does he make such a big deal at the end that HE is the one who helped Harry and taught him all those things? And, why does he refuse to hurt/fight Harry at the end, and in fact seem to be giving him fighting tips? (Learn to close your mind, keep your mouth shut, and you're not allowed to use Unforgiveable curses.) It's like he's giving him one last Defense Against the Dark Arts lesson.

He also screams like a wounded animal about not wanting to be called a coward. Why? Did he do something brave that we don't know about (like just kill the only person who trusted him because he had to, and strand himself alone in the enemy camp for the sake of the cause)? Or is he really upset because he WAS a coward, and had fully intended to break his vow and die but at the last minute couldn't do it?

He doesn't hurt anybody else. In fact, he drags all of the death eaters and the crazy werewolf out of the school. Why not let them do some more damage? Again, why no triumphant proclamations of allegiance to the Dark Lord? Remember how excited Bella got when she killed Sirius? Shouldn't Snape be celebrating such a coup? (Unless he's upset he could only do it when Dumbledore was already weak from poison, I guess) He tells everybody else not to kill Harry and to "leave him for the Dark Lord." Why, though? Whose orders? Ever since the regeneration, Voldemort and the Death Eaters have been trying to kill him, with the exception of when he happened to be holding the prophecy they wanted to hear. Nobody else seems to know it's Voldemort's wish to finish Harry himself -- does Snape have inside information, or is he secretly working to make sure Harry wins?

Obviously, Snape's not spying anymore. He has no one to report to that will trust him (unless he does it anonymously). But that doesn't mean he's no longer useful -- he's now theoretically Voldemort's right-hand man, and if he keeps his trap shut about the Horcruxes and helps buy Harry time to destroy them all, he could be the key to everything.

... Or, he could truly be a murdering, turncoat bastard and all that ambiguity could be written in just to make us nuts thinking about it for the next two years.

... But did anybody else notice that the modern-day Voldemort, who's supposed to be operating "out in the open," never shows up in this book, even once? Why not? What's he doing?

... *breathes* There. Marvel at my absurd geekiness. Poke holes in my theories. Fill in stuff I forgot. Pass the crack pipe. Etc.

Wow. Um... Wow.

Okay, you win.