BootsnAll Travel Community

if you have a working holiday visa it isn't a problem to fly into england on a one way. the visa is good for two years and you can not purchase return tickets that span two years.

the women didn't ask me for anything other then where i was staying when i first got into england.

Great info! Very interesting.
Storm wants me to THANK you guys for all your help.

from my recent experience travelling in europe....(american passport)

switzerland has been the easiest..i arrived here in july on a one way ticket and they didnt ask me anything nor did they stamp my passport...

i recently got home from travelling.. first to italy by train.. didnt check... then i travelled by bus to central europe (prague, budapest, and krakow)... passport was collected at all the stops and stamped... some even did exit stamps...

austria didn't collect it.... then passed through germany where they checked... the bus didnt even have to stop at frances boarder...

back to switzerland where again the bus stopped but they didnt collect my passport.... and this was the only stop where ppl were held back (two of them, no idea why).

to me it seems some countries use stamps more than others.. and it definately depends on your mode of transportation...however; ive even flown into places before (ex. barcelona) and not gotten a stamp!!

oh, and in prague... i was sitting on a bench by the river and the police pulled over and asked for my passport!? i gave it to them and they looked at it for a bit.... then asked if i was a student (no) or just on holidays (yes).. gave it back to me and left.... i thought that was weird but whatever....

You guys say the Schengen visa is a paperless automatic thing.....so why oh why does every website tell you how to buy one? Who to believe?

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Originally posted by Mama-to-many:
You guys say the Schengen visa is a paperless automatic thing.....so why oh why does every website tell you how to buy one?

Depends on what passport you are traveling on. American, like the OP?

Show us a website link and we'll probably show you a scam.

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Who to believe?

Wikipedia's Schengen Agreement page? The immigration websites of Schengen countries? But not someone who just wants your money

Just a quick question to confirm some stuff...

So simply you can be in any combination of Schengen (sp?) countries for 90/180 days.

Unless you have a seperate visa for a country, eg say i have a working holiday visa for say france and i stay there for say 4 months, does this mean i then can't go into any other schengen countries, or does my 90 days start once i leave france...?

Are there any ways around this? Such as getting a working holiday visa for UK, then not actually working there, just spending time in the schegen zones for over 90 days in every 180 days. I am guessing this isn't possible, but can't hurt to confirm it!

Any other ways around it, or is it basically you have 90/180 days deal with it...?!

Cheers everyone!

Amanda

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So simply you can be in any combination of Schengen (sp?) countries for 90/180 days.

90 of 180 concurrent days, yea.

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Unless you have a seperate visa for a country, eg say i have a working holiday visa for say france and i stay there for say 4 months, does this mean i then can't go into any other schengen countries, or does my 90 days start once i leave france...?

Your non-Schengen visa is for the country that issues it, the Schengen visa covers the rest.

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Are there any ways around this? Such as getting a working holiday visa for UK, then not actually working there, just spending time in the schegen zones for over 90 days in every 180 days. I am guessing this isn't possible, but can't hurt to confirm it!

No, I don't think you can do that if being legit is important to you.

Confusing stuff

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You guys say the Schengen visa is a paperless automatic thing.....so why oh why does every website tell you how to buy one? Who to believe?

Mama it isnt a biggie you shouldnt be paying for it its free and we kiwis get the same 90 days free pass as everyone else in the C section.

tbh it seems like a world full of fuss to me - all you do is rock on up to the customs people give them your passport, if they ask you, you say "Im here on holiday" and they let you in stamp your passport and its all sweet.

Seriously I had more issues getting back into NZ the customs/MAF agent thought I had an orange in my bag and pulled it apart looking for it and then realised there wasnt one and left me to clean up. gotta love em!

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Originally posted by xscorcho:
from my recent experience travelling in europe....(american passport)

switzerland has been the easiest..i arrived here in july on a one way ticket and they didnt ask me anything nor did they stamp my passport...

Same here..landed in Zurich, the guy gave me and the passport (US) one look and waived me on. No stamp. None for those who passed before me either.

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Originally posted by Madhu:

Same here..landed in Zurich, the guy gave me and the passport (US) one look and waived me on. No stamp. None for those who passed before me either.

these days in many places they don't stamp passports anymore, they just scan the machine readable code and you're good to go. all info about you is kept electronically. (my ex works in Immigration, I just asked him )

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Originally posted by Anna_ET:
these days in many places they don't stamp passports anymore, they just scan the machine readable code and you're good to go. all info about you is kept electronically. (my ex works in Immigration, I just asked him )

That is not what Madhu wrote, or I expressed in earlier posts--one can cross a boarder into and out of countries in Europe with no stamp, scan or whatever by immigration folks. Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

Stoo, that's because if you fly in/out, they already have your info from the flight passenger manifest. That information is cross checked (especially now that Schengen got bigger) and recorded, even if it doesn't look like that.

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Originally posted by Anna_ET:
Stoo, that's because if you fly in/out, they already have your info from the flight passenger manifest.

Even an in-flight manifest is not regarded as valid documentation of entry and exit by most security services, as such manifests are managed by non-government entities (the airlines.) No EU member state's customs agency should be using it and it alone to track visitors.

Stoo's right. If they don't scan and/or stamp your passport, and they often don't, then they have no official record that you've entered the country.

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That information is cross checked (especially now that Schengen got bigger) and recorded, even if it doesn't look like that.

Such information is collected, thus fulfilling the illusion of security, but it is rarely cross-checked. In fact, it often sits in a non-networked database or filing cabinet along with thousands of other files (as do the hotel registries stored in most European police offices.) The Grid that is so often talked about in Jason Bourne movies and poorly written suspense novels is more of an abused, well-punctured afghan than a well-coordinated net. Unless you owe Wells Fargo money. Then you'll find it at once all-knowing and all-seeing.

Not the first OP,
when leaving and entering Schengen, that information is crossed checked to look for travel patterns of people from "high risk areas". At least the information collected from those Schengen countries that have a non-EU border. Started last December.
But in any case, it will all be moot as next year they roll out fingerprinting, first on the eastern border, then on other outside borders. Poland looks set as the first one to try it.

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Originally posted by Anna_ET:
Stoo, that's because if you fly in/out, they already have your info from the flight passenger manifest. That information is cross checked (especially now that Schengen got bigger) and recorded, even if it doesn't look like that.

Even on train, boat, bus, car, foot? Nope.

And while "the authorities" have access to that information, there is no magic database in the sky that brings it together to provide a single, continuous travel narrative, as you imply. Line immigrations officials (specifically the ones that count, the officials one interacts with when crossing that next boarder) don't have this magic database.

2wanderers, NTFCO and my advice through out this thread stands.

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But in any case, it will all be moot as next year they roll out fingerprinting, first on the eastern border, then on other outside borders.

It won't be moot for years to come. Any all-knowing system would have to be universally implemented. I bet no sooner than a decade, if even then.

E.g.: I crossed to/from Slovakia/Austria just a year or so ago (and hence pre-Schengen) and they were two of the more lax boarder European boarder crossing experiences I've ever completed--quick, 2 second, visual inspection of my passport. No scans, no stamp, no names on the tickets. Nada.

The point to all of this is, your posts directly or partially contradict the reality of the situation.

Ah, the thread that just wouldn't die.

Anna_ET, is, partly right. The database (the Schengen Information System) does exist, and is implemented throughout the EU (including non-Schengen countries), as well as non-EU Schengen countries. And yes, whenever your passport is scanned in Europe, the record ends up in the system. At least that's the theory - not being on the inside of any European immigration system, I have no idea of how well it works. Also, I've never heard of using flight manifests before, but it wouldn't be a huge surprise.

But while the system is good for tracking

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travel patterns of people from "high risk areas"

its application as a visa enforcement tool...certainly I've never heard of that happening. Indeed, from what I read on the EU website...it sounds like border guards add information to the system, but it sounds like the systems are somewhat segregated (there's a national system that then in turn talks to a common system), and doesn't sound like the guy at the border is going to see a complete record of your past crossing pop up in front of them.

EU borders remain pretty slack for other westerners to cross. There are plenty of ways to legitimately enter and exit Europe without a stamp or electronic record of the crossing. So border guards continue to use the tried and true method for catching cheats. And, in the end, unless you come out and tell them that you're breaking the rules...if you look respectable and don't piss them off, the likelihood of having trouble is negligible. Immigration officers have better things to do than rough up some backpackers who want to stay (and spend money) for 6 months.

quote:

Originally posted by Anna_ET:
when leaving and entering Schengen, that information is crossed checked to look for travel patterns of people from "high risk areas".

When a Customs agent scans a passport, which is rare, that information is thrown into a local database. That local database, in turn, is supposed to be relayed to the SIS II central database in Strasbourg. But this is also rare. In fact, though it's been in use (in one form or another) since 2002, individual national and pan-European agencies (such as Europol and Eurojust) still use their own separate databases and the central system imagined by the SIS project remains unrealized. This lack of integration is largely due to contrasting national privacy laws; especially amongst the new EastErn European member states.

When a Customs agent flips through your passport, fails to stamp or scan it, you are now in that country without an official entry record. If someone decides to hunt down your movements, they need to have local constables search through their respective hotel registration files (providing you checked into a hotel.)

Of course, in reality, if anyone ever got curious it would be your legal responsibility to provide evidence that you haven't broken the law by overstaying your visa. In other words, it would be on you to prove that you entered and exited the country on this or that date.

EDIT: Apologies, 2wanderers. Missed your post. See you've covered much of this and more.

Stoo,
my posts do not contradict anything. Unfortunately several of my husband's relatives overstayed their paperless Schengen visa and the shit hit the fan. Most recently - last Friday actually when trying to leave Finland. Hence, I'm talking from my personal RECENT experience. You may THINK that the information is not recorded, and if that makes you feel more comfortable when traveling in Europe, then be my guest.

Since last December, the system has become much more integrated and efficient in tracking information. If you really think that because your passport wasn't scanned at the border, there is no record of you in Europe, then try to overstay, and see what happens. Do it THIS year, not last year. True, the system won't catch everyone YET, but the odds are you will be caught.

As for fingerprints on the eastern border in Poland, it goes live 2009 (have documents about it, only in Polish, though).

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my posts do not contradict anything.

Other than the posts by myself and others this thread.

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You may THINK that the information is not recorded, and if that makes you feel more comfortable when traveling in Europe, then be my guest.

Oh, yea...forgot about that GPS chip in my scalp...they can track me...yea...

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If you really think that because your passport wasn't scanned at the border, there is no record of you in Europe, then try to overstay, and see what happens.

I never said this. Again: I said there is no magic consolidated database at the finger tips of every immigration official. Full stop.

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As for fingerprints on the eastern border in Poland, it goes live 2009 (have documents about it, only in Polish, though).

It does not make this issue mute, which you claimed.

Chill out and read the thread again, in full. Take notes. There will be a quiz.

I have consistently advised people, in this thread and others, to document their travels in and through Schengen, legitimate or not, to reflect a travel narrative that presents them as a low-risk traveler to immigrations officials.

Your faith in an single, consistent, all knowing Schengen immigration system and the bureaucrats behind it is naive. The reality is much inconsistent, error prone, incomplete, varied, and diverse. McSchengen does not exist.

What I am taking issue with is the absolute "they know" nature of your posts. It simply is not that black and white.

What is in place, for all its faults, is the Schengen Information System. That first version is pretty anemic. Each country compliments it with their own, previous systems and agreements. SIS II is coming, but like all government and international IT projects, its implementation is...an llloonngg and interesting story.

Edit...oh, I see The Uncle Coops and 2wanderers have already touched on SIS...

In 20 years, maybe we'll have Anna's all knowing system. But not yet.

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Unfortunately several of my husband's relatives overstayed their paperless Schengen visa and the shit hit the fan. Most recently - last Friday actually when trying to leave Finland.

Now this is interesting. I have a few questions:
1 - What nationality are your husband's relatives?
2 - Did they enter and exit in the same country?
3 - How long did they overstay by?
4 - What, exactly, happenned when the 'shit hit the fan?'

Now, I've always supported the idea of going legally if possible, but my experience with European immigration has always been quite laid back, and I wouldn't have concerns with overstaying a visa if that's what's necessary to make a trip work (provided other laws weren't broken, and no employment was sought).

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pan-European agencies (such as Europol and Eurojust) still use their own separate databases and the central system imagined by the SIS project remains unrealized.

I'm not sure that SIS was ever envisioned as replacing the other systems you mention. The EU website seems to indicate different goals...with the Europol and Eurojust systems being intended to share information on organised crime, and the SIS being intended to coordinate immigration and visa policy and prevent what they referred to as 'visa shopping.'