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So this does validate my thought...people don't choose religion for love, they choose it because they are scared of hell.

Whoever came up with that is rather brilliant. If you don't follow me, make war when I say make war, give me your money, you will burn forever. I mean, what can you really say to that?

How do you decide on your god? The one that dishes out the most punishment if you don't believe? Believe in them all to make sure you get it right? What about the ancient cultures that have no concept of the christian god? Are they doomed by default? What if someone else comes along and tells you the christian god is wrong and you will be struck by lightning over and over if you don't believe what they say (bad example, but you get the idea)?

Maybe this is dragging this off topic, but since some firm believers in hell have joined the conversation I'd love to hear their opinions.

Really, what it all comes down to is faith. Everyone has faith in one way or another, whether it be faith that two rocks banged together and created the earth or faith that an all-loving, all-knowing God created the universe. Even is science, intelligent people believe disagree on the most basic of topics ...

For people who had accepted the God of the Bible and His son, Jesus Christ, it is not a matter of accepting a "religion" or a way to be saved, but actually just way of accepting the truth about God who created us all and loves us all euqally. A few by-products of acceptance are having a better life (and by better, I don't mean one without problems or with additional success, but rather one where you are striving to live the way He would want you to) AND also being able to be with Him when you finally die. For those who choose not to believe in Him, they will not be with Him after they die and unfortunately will see the consequences of their choices (i.e. the concept of Hell) ...

Everyone has a choice to believe or not. For those who say "What about the tribes in Africa who have never heard of God?", mu response is simple. #1 -- those places are becoming all-but extinct with travel and communication broadening to such a degree -- all you have to do is see the ultra-Christian countries of Uganda and the like to see that .. and secondly, if God is a loving God (and, yes, that is the premise I am working from), I trust He knows more than me and you how He has chosen to give everyone in the world a choice to believe in Him or not ... in other words, many believe He could create the world from nothing, but does not have the ability to make His word known to all around said world -- strange combination, wouldn't you agree?

Once again, I implore those out there who spend more time planning their next trip than they do researching the Word of God and thinking about their after-life along with their present, blink-of-an-eye life, to put forth more effort with such a life-altering decision ... it will be worth your time

AaA

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that people should be "threatened" into believing in God.

I am also very uncomfortable with statements like "they are wrong" when it comes to religion. Many wars have started that way...

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I am also very uncomfortable with statements like "they are wrong" when it comes to religion.

I understand what you are saying. Discomfort is common when it comes to difficult topics. But if one person thinks the Bible is the Word of God and another thinks it is a collection of false fables, one person is wrong, is he not? If one person believes God created the world and another believes there is no such thing as a God, can both people be right? 1+1 cannot equal 2 and 3 at the same time ... as much as we wish it could ... and as I have only my faith to back up my assertions and cannot guarantee I am right, I can, however, strongly assert I am either right or wrong ...

AaA

Well, I think there's also the possibility that both people are wrong, just using your examples listed above. Now of course this is just my opinion, but I think it's entirely too easy to label things as just 'right' or 'wrong.' Obviously this speaks to my own beliefs that I have developed over time, but I think there are many shades of gray, and I also think it is possible to have a grasp of the partial truth, or 'rightness,' if you want to call it that, but you might not be right about everything. Just using the belief in a God, vs. no God, yes, it might be absolutely true, and reality, that there is a God - but He might be entirely different from how you perceive or believe him to be; so in the sense of your conception of him (or anyone's conception of him, for that matter), you could be wrong.

I think in these sorts of discussions, it is important to at least concede that you might be wrong - even though internally, you believe 100% that you're right. I think anyone who really spends a lot of time delving into subjects like this, and anyone who really thinks about it, will feel quite strongly about their particular beliefs. I feel quite strongly about many of beliefs. However, I also recognize that the fact that I feel strongly, and feel 'right', about my beliefs, doesn't mean squat - because every other individual out there feels equally strongly about their own sense of reality. So that recognition kinda kicks my tendency towards arrogance down a notch ;-). Who, really, am I, to think I know better than someone else what happens after death? (or numerous other things??) My choice is to develop my own belief system, based on what I see around me, and based on what I do know about this universe. I'm quite a gray person (not black/white), so another comment I have is that some of these things I think tie to a persons' personality/disposition. There's also a book out there called 'Skeptic/Believer' - or something like that. Some of us will always be pure skeptics, others don't even entertain skepticism - skepticism doesn't occur to them. And everything in between. I also think that's where respect and kindness comes in - just doing your utmost to respect other peoples' opinions (and not try to convince/scare them into thinking otherwise..is that really anyone's job??), and treat people with kindness.

I think the other important thing to note in discussions like these is that these are mere snapshots in our own existance -- I would have answered this question quite differently when I was about 8 (when I went to church w/ my parents), about the same when I was 16 (when I came to my own conclusions about the bible), quite differently when I was 22 (when I was a born-again for a few years), and now. I think for all of us who really think about this stuff, we come to new conclusions over time, and through our experiences and interactions w/ people and the world.

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I think for all of us who really think about this stuff, we come to new conclusions over time, and through our experiences and interactions w/ people and the world.

I would have to disagree with this statement, unfortunately. The more I have traveled and the more experiences I have had with Hindus in India, Buddhists in Nepal, atheists and agnostics in the backpacking community, as well as people of the Jewish persuasion in Israel, my belief in God of the Bible and His son, Jesus, has only become stronger. Just because we continue to mature and develop as people does not mean we will come to new conclusions over certain life decisions like our faith. We can "really think" about things and just become stronger in our original faith at the end of the day.

As for your statement anybody can be wrong, I totally agree. That is where faith comes in to play, but if you ask me to prove the existence of God I cannot, much like a scientist cannot prove the origins of the first time the universe came into being. But I stand by the statement if one says there is a God and another says there is not, they both cannot be right. It simply is not possible, no matter how much grey a person wants to add into the mix.

"(and not try to convince/scare them into thinking otherwise..is that really anyone's job??)"

To convince??? Yes, that is part of the mandate of a believer, as spoken about in the Bible which I believe as the word of God ... scaring them, no ... but then again, the entire concept of Hell is scary for anybody who takes it seriously and I can't ignore the teachings of the Bible to make things less scary for some. That is not my place to do.

AaA

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You are right. It probably won't function as a threat or even a warning ... the one irrefutable fact is we all will die ... and at that point many answers will be given to us ... some possibilities are ...

1)We are reborn -- in which case, we won't remember the former life (except maybe in our subconscious) and we will be brought back for how we were in the previous life (an earning system, if you will); so believers in God and non-believers will be in the same boat, depending on how they lived their lives ...

2)Ashes to ashes, dust to dust -- we will know no more and just enter into a state of nothingness (and whatever your belief system on earth, it will have no relevance upon death); again, believers and non in the same boat ...

3)The is a Heaven and a Hell -- and many people who expected they would either have a 2nd chance to accept the truth (if it turned out to be true), believed that God did not exist (or worse, disparaged him consistently while on earth in an egocentric manner) or that if they were good enough, it didn't matter at all what they believed (because planning their next trip was worthy of more of their time than to decide whether or not God was real; well, let's just say many of these folks are going to have a very RUDE awakening ... and sadly, it will be too late ... their free will and "intelligence" will have led to their undoing and no amount of negotiation, pleading or backtracking will do them any good ... they can stand there and disparage the Bible as "man's work" and "a bunch of fables", but it will all be for nought ... and that is quite sad ...

The thing is, if I found out god were true and heaven and hell existed and all that, I'd like to think I wouldn't be all apologetic and remorsefull. I'd like to think I´d stick to my guns. Because the important issue is not whether god exists or not, but whether I personally agree with his spiritual and moral code.

In the case of pretty much every religion I have come across, this is not the case. Therefore, even if I was let into heaven, It wouldn't be the place for me. So therefore, I'm assuming heaven wouldn't be heaven for me, so to speak, and likewise with hell.

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Because the important issue is not whether god exists or not, but whether I personally agree with his spiritual and moral code.

So if it turns out there is a God who created the universe, the important thing is whether or not you -- one of His creations -- agree with his code of ethics? I've had conversations about God and His word more times than I can count, but have never heard this perspective. Thanks for that. It isn't often that I hear something completely unique in a conversation.

AaA

There is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. The first passover was done by the Jews enslaved in Egypt. They slaughtered a pure spotless lamb(a foreshadowing of the Cross) and ate him with bitter herbs and unleavened bread, then smeared the lambs blood over there doorpost to escape the plague of the death of the first born. In the Hebrew books of the law great detail is given in the sacrificing of the pure spotless lamb for the forgiveness of sins, but none of this worked. The people were seperated from the tabernacle(symbolizing the presence of God) by the temple curtain. The law doesnt help us, it simply leaves us helpless. The law was designed to let us know that we need a saviour.

Jesus said that if you have broken one part of the law then you have broken the entire thing. The word says that mans ritcheousness is as filthy rags before the lord. How can you have filthy rags before perfect beauty? How can you have any darkness before light? What happens when you turn on a light in a dark room? The darkness is chased out. Light and Darkness cannot coexist. But "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Jesus was the pure spotless lamb who suffered for our salvation. The 53rd book of Isaiah prophesied of Jesus 750 years before his birth:

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



When Jesus died on the cross, after his blood was spilled to cover the transgressions of sinners, the temple curtain split in two. We now have forgiveness and access to the presence of God thru the blood of Christ. The Apostle John said that God now sees us as perfect thru the blood of Christ. Jesus said in Mathew18:

"For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.[a]
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

The Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3:9:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."


We were not intentioned for hell. We were made for the presence of God, but we choose sin over God in our free will. Jesus refered to hell as "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" It was not made for us, but for the devils and his angels, and those who choose to go. Jesus often refered to hell as "Gehenna" which was the refuse dump outside of Jerusalem that was constantly burning.

As far as people who have had no gospel witness, Jesus said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for ritcheousness, for they shall be filled". I have heard numerous testimonies from missionaries about isolated tribes across Asia, who when confronted with the Gospel, said something to the effect of "Oh thats his name? Yeah we know him". There have also been numerous prophecies amongst Native Indian tribes about the white man coming with the word of God. God will reveal himsefl to those who hunger and thirst for ritcheousness.

Geronimo himself, the great Apache warrior and medicine man said "I cannot think that we are useless or God would not have created us. There is one God looking down on us all. We are all the children of one God." If anyone had a reason to point out the hipocrasy of Christians and to be imbittered against the Gospel it was him.

But when he was baptized in 1903 in Medicine Creek, OK, he stated "Believing that in a wise way it is good to go to church, and that associating with Christians would improve my character, I have adopted the Christian religion...I am not ashamed to be a Christian...I have advised all of my people who are not Christians, to study that religion, because it seems to me the best religion in enabling one to live right."

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So if it turns out there is a God who created the universe, the important thing is whether or not you -- one of His creations

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So if it turns out there is a God who created the universe, the important thing is whether or not you -- one of His creations -- agree with his code of ethics?

Yes entirely.

I wouldn't feel comfortable in Heaven, If I was surrounded by people who to me were immoral. As I said before that wouldn't be heaven to me.

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It isn't often that I hear something completely unique in a conversation.

I haven't heard it before either, but I'd be very surprised if it is a unique point of view.

Unfortunately they are very hard to come by in philosophy.

Wow this is such a great topic. I can say I have found there is no ONE religion that has shaped my life or given me any comfort or one that made me think, ah! I see, it all makes sense now. Nothing I've studied has satisfied me completely. I think most religion is political in part, but.....some of it holds weight; more like bits and pieces of all the things I've studied. Some things make sense to me and I agree with and other things I don't agree with.

I've thought a lot about reincarnation and I've decided that I don't think it is that simple: things don't automatically happen how they should and I don't think people automatically get what they deserve. At some point, I think what goes around comes around but the scientists have discovered the earth is not perfectly round, and the universe isn't perfect either. That said, it makes sense to me that there is evil and a kind of "hell," but Rhett said to Scarlett, you're having your hell now. Hell can be a job or life situation as well. I disagree with many Christian beliefs but other ones make sense to me. I don't think there's any easy answer to this. The other question is whether someone is born or made evil: even psychiatrists say that certain people are born the way they are and can't be changed. But we're all free to choose, right? I mean, I don't have an answer to this, but if someone is "born evil" then it makes sense there's a hell, of sorts. Or the other side is, are people "born good"? ect

God has given every one of us free will do to what we want to do. And because he is a loving God, he has not "set anybody up" to have no choice but to be evil, as those would not be the actions of a loving God.

You can find psychiatrists that will speak on different sides of the same coin on this, any every other, issue.

People have the choice to follow God and Jesus or not to follow them. And, like with every other choice in the world, there are consequences to one's actions. Whether the individual wants there to be or not.

I never said people don't have free will. But that is some people's theory: that people are born a certain way, not made. No nothing is inevitable; I'm a big believer in one's power to change their lives, ect.

I'm talking from this article; now, I know this person will seem "out there" to most, but this is where I got the idea of what I just said:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20021030-000001.html

and ok, this article may seem disturbing to some

http://www.stargods.org/Born_Evil.html

I am not saying one way or the other whether I think a person is born or made that way; merely posing the question. I'm saying this because my belief in psychotherapy is also always shaky.....so I'm trying to find others' views on it.

"Take Hitler for example. I believe that he was born evil and never had a chance for salvation. He was born to do what he did. The churches teach that he could of come to Christ at anytime. I do not believe that people chose to be evil; I feel that they are born evil along with a natural nature that evokes hatred towards God. I feel that people like Hitler were born evil and were predestined to hell. These are of the seed of Satan."

It is an interesting question and like others, is worthy of thought and discussion. The only thing I could add to the thought process is if there is a loving God who created us all, would he create those who were inherenetly evil? It does not seem like the actions of a loving God, much less the actions of the God located in the Bible.

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It is an interesting question and like others, is worthy of thought and discussion. The only thing I could add to the thought process is if there is a loving God who created us all, would he create those who were inherenetly evil? It does not seem like the actions of a loving God, much less the actions of the God located in the Bible.

There is an interesting theory, and I am not sue exactly how it runs, and I can't remember who it is by, but it runs a bit like this:

Christians, and other believers in Monotheisic religions generally agree on these four statements.

1) God is completely Good.
2) God is Omnipotent.
3) Evil Exists.
4) Good extinguishes evil where possible. It is the opposite of evil

However this presents a paradox. If God is completley good and omnipotent (all powerful, then evil should not exist because good extinguishes evil where possible.

If you bring the issue of free will into it, it gets more complicated, involving first and second tier goods and things like that. However the basic tenents of the argument remain, and at least one of these beliefs cannot be true.

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4) Good extinguishes evil where possible

It all depends on how you define the phrase "when possible" I believe. You see, God could extinguish evil everywhere at this very moment, but he allows satan to co-exist and he allows us to sometimes experience the consequences of our free will. Much like a child who touches a hot stove and gets burned, we are God's children and as much as it pains him when we make wrong decisions, many time we still have to suffer through the consequences. The world began in perfect form, but to stop humans from being no more than puppets, God gave us the right to choose. We chose poorly and much of the suffering and misery you see on earth today goes back to our initial choices as a people.

That is where heaven will be different. There will not be any suffering there. Believers will be with God and it will make this blink-of-an-eye life we are all living now look just like that -- a blink-of-an-eye. And the best part is entry is free. All you have to do is give yourself to the Lord after he gave his life for us in real time. Easiest gift (and most important) I have received.

It says in the book of Proverbs that "A mans follishness ruins his life, yet his heart rages against the Lord" So we screw stuff up and then we say to God "How could you have let this happen to me?" Would you prefer that we had no free will? Maybe if we were robots. If I built a robot and programmed it to hug me and say "I love you" is that love? CERTAINLY NOT! You can not have love without free will. The Hebrew and Christian scriptures support both predestination and free will, or, if you prefer, Calvinism and Armeneism. I personaly feel that there is more support for free will, and the predestination stuff balances it out with the Omnipotence of God. So the idea of God preordaining someone for hell is a tough one to swallow. God knows that certain people are going to do certain things(ie prophecy) but I dont see many examples of him forcing anyone to do anything. I think an interesting way to see it is that God does not force the future to fit the scriptures, but rather the scriptures are a description of the reality of mans choices.

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God gave us the right to choose. We chose poorly and much of the suffering and misery you see on earth today goes back to our initial choices as a people.

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You can not have love without free will

Ah this is where it gets complicated.

God may have given us free will. But was that good of him.
If god created the world then he also created all its rules.

Therefore why is it not possible to love without free will, because God created the world that way?

God doesn not work within the framework of logic, he created logic. Therefore, if he was good and omnipotent, he would not have introduced the complication of free will.

One argument, is that free will is more important than good. It is a higher tier good, so to speak. But why was it nessecary for god to create the world this way. If hje was good, he surely wouldn't have allowed the existence of evil, which is the opposite of good. Therefore if free will is a higher tier good then it was god who made it such.

Another argument, is that evil is nessesary for good to exist. One