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This is sort of a very late response to the Ishmael thread. In my experience, people who recieve and develope these theories about how evil white people are and how every single little thing is a lie and a ploy designed by the Bilderbergs to entice you to feed the system and service the future, well they tend to be really self centered, idealistic, and inexperienced kids.

Like the liberal American self hating Jew who goes to spend some time in the Palestinian territories, arriving with an "End the Occupation" button, and leaving with the realization that these divisions are very deeprooted and exist for a reason, and they are not just shallow feelings of racism based on ignorance. Well sometimes they are, but the hater doesnt always have to, and often does not, understand the roots of his or her hatred.

People want something different and they want a justification for there rebellion, so they read BS books by Michael Moore, David Ick , Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn , and a slew of other disingenuous(or just outright decieved) propaganda artist. These people help you to convince yourself and appease your conscience. If you say that one of these people enlightened you to the point of turning your back on Christianity, your community, your family, or whatever it may be, well I contest that it was already in your heart to do so and you are using these vain and shallow philosophies to justify the desires of your heart. Following your heart can lead you and alot of other people into alot of pain. Ya know who else followed their heart? Hitler, David Koresh, Stalin, Bin Ladin, so on and so forth. The heart can be exeedingly wicked and deceptive.

But you will know a tree by its fruit. What fruit do I see coming out of the lives of everyone I know that buys into these theories? None. I see alot of people living lives seperated entirely unto themselves, because they feel that they are enlightened and they dont care to share in the deception that has entangled everyone else. They are generaly doing no good for anyone.

And what is with the glorification of Tribalism? Take a look at the primitive tribes we still have today and take a look at the tribal sytems that are very well documented in history. Where is there any peace? 99.9% of tribal life is based on war and vengence. The white man hapennes to have invented ways of doing it on a much larger and more destructive scale. Lets not decieve ourselves into thinking that things were great back then and are awful now or vice versa. I believe that technology and globilization are a big part of the roots system on wich modern warfare and horror is based and it started in the past century. But my point is that the tribal Nomad verses industrialized farmer argument is mostly void.

A friend of mine recently wrote to me about all of the breakthrough he has been having with theories such as the Ishmael theory, my response was:

quote:

I thought I should let you that in the past year while you have been pondering your existence:

More than 1,000,000 people have been living in near uninhabitable, desease infested slums

Outside of the dense slums, another 500,000,000 people live in absolute poverty

Over 2,900,000 men women and children died of HIV\AIDS

A further 15,000,000 children were orphaned due to the AIDS virus

About every four seconds, someone dies of starvation

An estimated 15,000,000 children starve to death every year.

An estimated halfmillion people have been murdured in the Darfur region of Sudan by the Muslim Death Squad Soldiers, and that number is still rising as the slaughter continues, many more have been raped, mutilated, Had their villages burned, and been forced off of their land to watch their children starve to death.

There is alot more to life than empty self-concious\centered philosophy. Anyone can change the lives of millions for the better, but most of us dont because we are too wrapped up in ourselves. But there is nothing but yourself to keep you from reaching out to the hurting people around you every day.

All of these theories are fun to share and kick around, but when these things become the primary focus of our lives to the point where we cant discern the truth from the hype, well then I think that we are in trouble. Start by feeding the homeless guy that you pass everyday on the way to work or school. We can learn to love the hurting people around us and around the globe and work towards bettering their lives and giving them hope. There is nothing we can do about chemtrails, or the Free Masons, or how we think things went down with the whole tribal system. But we can stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves, we can feed the hungry, we can cloth the naked, we can shelter the homeless, we can be a voice for the voiceless, we can let down our political and philisophical bias and search for truth amidst all of the muck and the mire. But the last thing we should ever do is "Tune in and drop out".

You equate Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore with a guy who claims that our elected representatives are shape-shifting lizard-aliens who drink human blood? Whoa. Rock on, dude.

This is from the page you linked with "David Ick":

quote:

I'm not claiming these people weren't 100% human at one time, what I am saying is that they invited the control and bodily takeover of Reptilians through blood drinking and rituals and now can be bodily overtaken by them or possessed against or within their own will.

*please keep in mind, we all have the ability to see these humans/reptilians for what they are and how they really are. Just pray for God to reveal it to you. Being a reptilian is something that must be activated through drinking blood and ritual among those who possess the serpent DNA. Not all those who possess this DNA are reptilian. Reptilians in human form are also called shapeshifters and can go between looking human one second, and a lizard-like reptilian the next. For more information on the reptilian's obsession with blood and rituals click here

Well David Ick is a VERY exagerated form of the modern Conspiracy Thoerist, but i find that alot of the people who follow the teachings of Chomsky, Zinn, and Moore also tend to bring up Ick in conversation like "Yeah this guy David Ick has some interesting theories, I dont buy into all of it, BUT....". Yeah so there is a certain guilt by association thing going on there.

....and generalizations and stereotypes is the new gospel according to Goodlookinrebel

David Ick is so cool.

In Hawaii they love him. Oh, how the hippies and the rastas love their David Ick.

I remember sitting on a house with these kids and they wanted to debate with me about David Ick. It's like..how can you even fucking argue about it, you know? If you are dealing with people who believe that shit then it's pointless to even put them in the same mental catagory of other sane humans.

I think it's politics though...as long as he is saying things people like to hear, he will have an audience.

Yeah I agreed to watch a David Ick interview with a friend last night. Apparently he thought that I would be blown away. I tried to debate with him afterwords and he just lost it and started calling me a brainwashed robot or something like that. He always gets really mad when I try to bring history and facts into the debate.

This is why I need to go back to school, so i can study and debate with sane educated people who can control their emotions.

whether enlightened or self-obsessed, they are both traits that the human species has. We have the ability to look at other things other then our present needs. Do "lesser" creatures think "i wonder how that dying/starving antelope feels.." nope. The pain of other people is only worse because we conceive it to be. (i'm not tryin to demean the plights of others) Unfortunately there are people in this world, that have absolutely no idea what's going on in the world around them, but knowing what has been going on on the other side of the planet has only been a luxery we have experience since the time of mass communications and media. Maybe those people with their wild and outspoken theories have their purposes to actually make those blind, open their eyes for just a second to something other then themselves. Whether good or bad (we have many many examples of that through history , as you said) the purpose is to "enlighten" people to something...

In short we are enlightened, because that's one of the perks of being human. And we are completely self-obsessed because we are still just animals. I dunno how people can make theories that goes completely against basic science such as "lizard-men"... to be completely honest i didn't learn about Ick in my uni. philosophy class, and havn't heard of him before, but somehow i think thats a good thing... lol, but the truth of the matter is, we are still babies of time and we still know next to nothing about the world/universe around us. Hell we can bearly look after our own kind and planet let alone figure out lizard-men...
--Diana

quote:

Originally posted by Baretta:
If you are dealing with people who believe that shit then it's pointless to even put them in the same mental catagory of other sane humans.

and they think the same of you. "crazy" thing is, your opinion is no more valid than theirs, and theirs no more valid than yours.

edit: in response to the thread title; buddha had a quote, and it was something to the effect of "no being has ever entered nirvana" nirvana, in this case, could also be construed as "enlightenment."