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I'm curious to hear people's takes (and hopefully explanations from those who are learned about the religion -- ahem Grannygold un-ahem) on the different schools of Buddhist thought.

What makes someone a Zen Buddhist as opposed to a follower of Mahayana Buddhism?

I'm really quite interested, of course, being an American, in how American Buddhism *may* be different from the various Asian schools of Buddhism. It's taking shape now in such a geography and culture so different than it's root, I think about how it's flavor might be different.

I know this discussion might run rather counter to Buddhist principles of non-dualism. I would say in general the religion gently points out that differences are in the head, products of a mind whose nature is to see things as "A, or B" and so get lost in illusions when looking at the world, but hey, maybe talking about categories in this way (which is a little dualistic), will be helpful in gaining understanding.

I sort of playfully think of some of the Buddhist schools as:

Tibetan: the fun party Buddhists
Zen: the masculine tough school
Mahayana: Tradition. With a capital T. Buddhism.
American: who the heck knows

Thoughts?

Hi Christina,
I only have time for a couple quick thoughts about schools of Buddhism this morning, but maybe more later...

Mahayana Buddhism ("Greater Vehicle") incorporates numerous Buddhist traditions, including Zen/Chan, Tendai/T'ien t'ai, Shin, Jodo Shinshu, etc, etc. It also includes Vajrayana Buddhism ("tantric buddhism") and, thus, Tibetan Buddhism.

There is also a derogatory term Hinayana Buddhism ("Lesser Vehicle"), which is more politely referred to as Nikaya Buddhism by some in academic circles. Theravada Buddhism (common in SEA) is the sole remaining tradition that falls into this branch.

This is a fair map to help you understand the high-level landscape and diffusion of Buddhism.

I look forward to this dialog!

This is not a specific comment on the various forms of Buddhism, but from a humanistic point of view, one thing that affects all religions is how they mix with the religion and culture already in place.

Think of the pre-Christian influences on Catholicism, the pre-Columbian influences on Christianity in the Carribean and South America, and so on.

There are similar influences in various forms of Buddhism that arose in particular places. Tibetan Buddhism, for example, is influenced by Bon. Some of Japan's various forms of Buddhism are influenced by Shinto.

I would think that "American Buddhism" is somewhat unique in that it's developed in a new era where communication and travel are easy, and geographic isolation is less relevant. People can pick and choose from among the available options.

Thank you dryadsage for the link, that's really useful.

So that tells you all I know. When I said Mahayana Buddhists were very traditional, I actually meant to say the Theravada School:

quote:

The earliest available teachings of the Buddha are to be found in Pali literature and belongs to the school of the Theravadins, who may be called the most orthodox school of Buddhism. This school admits the human characteristics of the Buddha, and is characterised by a psychological understanding of human nature; and emphasises a meditative approach to the transformation of consciousness.

The teachers I had just say "Theravada" instead of "Hinayana" to not be derogatory, since Theravada is the only remaining school of that very traditional Buddhism.

For other readers: the Pali Canon is the oldest surviving complete written account of the Buddha's teaching. I forget when it dates back to exactly, but I believe it's from Burma? (Could be wrong on that if anyone knows please confirm or correct.) As such it's incredibly valuable for a few reasons. One of which is that it has helped scholars understand other Buddhist written works that are in fragments -- they can compare those incomplete pieces against the Pali Canon to glean more information.

Originally Buddha's teachings were passed down orally. The monks were all about precision of the mind and memory, so this oral history was described to me by a Buddhist academic as being even more precise than written history, because it would be recited and heard by a large group of monks who would correct a novice who recited it incorrectly.

I should also clariy that when I jokingly refer to Tibetan Buddhists as the fun party Buddhists, I don't mean because that school includes Tantric teachings. My impression was coming from the colorfulness of that school. Many other Buddhists are much more austere in imagery and teaching, it's the Tibetans who have literature about fantastical jewel trees filled with gems and the dragons that secreted the teachings away underwater for a few hundred years and Buddha living in a golden jeweled pagoda growing out of his mother's side for years before he was born.

I might also have been influenced in that impression by taking a class with Robert Thurman on Tibetan Buddhism, who is an expert on Tibetan Buddhism and also sort of like Robin Williams on crack when he lectures -- NOT what I would have expected a Buddhist scholar to be like, heh. He's hilarious.

hi Christina - in - Brooklyn, had any great longaniza lately?

I think of all those different branches of Buddhism as different aspect of our spiritual journey. And I don't mean it in a linear, stage by stage type of journey.

Let's see, Hinayana is when you make sure you are all packed with the essentials for the journey, you've taken care of all the mail, the pet care, etc.

Mahayana is when you are now thinking, "..I gotta bring an extra this and that in case someone else on the trip forgot theirs..", or "I'd better call ahead to make sure all the flights are on schedule, and the hotels are confirmed...boy, i hope everyone will have a great time on this trip.."

Zen is when you've arrived at your destination all safe and sound and you find yourself not quite all there, still thinking about something back home, or of some trivial, immaterial things, and you thought, "..Hey! wake up! You're HERE at the beach (mountain..or wherever), do you remember how you got here? Were you even aware of how wonderful that breeze feels on your skin?! HELLO!? Everyone is here, everyone is having the time of their life..ARE YOU ALL HERE?! WAKE UP! Walk and run like you mean it, it's your body here, not some lifeless luggage!"

Tibetan Buddhism is when you're munching on an apple and you see this squirrel from afar, you whistle at it, and it runs towards you like your long lost lover, and then you squat down to take a look, thinking it wants to be fed, but no, it's got its own acorn in its mouth as it ran all the way over to stand on its hind legs, within a safe distance from you, but obviously sharing this meal with you as it takes the acorn with its hands and start chomping on it, standing there, and you chomp on your apple and thought, Hmm, interesting cross-species communication there....

Boy I hope i don't offend anyone by this. (I don't what stage this is..)

What a great conversation! I'm sorry to be so late joining--I've been away for a while because my email changed, yadayada. (And see, you didn't even need me. Does that stop me from chipping in my two cents? Apparently not.) The people who answered you, Christina, are all wonderfully imaginative, including you! One mountain, many paths. Basically all forms of Buddhism are about the same thing: meditation. That's the practice, and although it comes in more flavors than Ben & Jerry's, it's all about being present, developing kindness, compassion and courage, and letting go of craving for THIS to happen or aversion to THAT happening, in order to avoid suffering and cultivate as much happiness as possible while still being engaged in support of peace and justice. Who can quibble with any of that? (Well, some people do quibble with the peace part, but quibbling is part of what people seem to like doing.) The various schools reflect their origins (or lineages). If you have lots of choices of Buddhist practice centers and sitting groups near you, check them all out and see where you feel most comfortable. If there is only one variety near you, try that. If a book appeals to you, read it. Whatever you practice for a year or so begins to feel "right," but many Buddhist teachers ask us to remain humble about having the answers and not to get attached to a particular style of practice. Some Buddhists eat meat, others are vegetarian; some practice tantric sex, others are celibate; some meditate with eyes open, others with eyes closed; some wear maroon and saffron, others wear gray; some have elaborate rituals, others are plain and simple. I'll be visiting three different residential centers this coming summer (Upaya Zen Center, Green Gulch Farm, and (probably) Jikoji Zen Center) and will be blogging as I go, so I'll give anyone who is interested some hot fresh info as I go. I've spent time at many other Buddhist centers too numerous to list or link to, and every one has given me its own gifts, all of which I treasure. Last week I visited Houston Zen Center and found it absolutely wonderful. Coincidentally, the three centers I'm going to this summer are all connected with Soto (Japanese) Zen. I don't know the Soto Zen lingo (roshi, ango, shuso, etc.), but I'm going to learn it as I hang out with them. The surface details don't much matter; whatever gets you interested enough to make a commitment to regular practice: keep that one! The guy who talked at HZC last week says he meditates because it's so interesting. I completely agree. For beginners I strongly recommend the Boot Camp version of Buddhism: Vipassana Meditation Centers run by S.N. Goenka. Get your feet wet with ten days of silence! It's intense.

My perspective on buddhism is that it is certainly individual. It is finding my own way of life truthfully, without illusions. and knowing that "i" have a valid perspective but certainly not a universal one. the ego isnt a problem, the problem is that its viewed as a problem. its there, accept it and then it can be "changed." meditation adds a certain element to my day, but i view it as i do sleeping; its simply something i do. It is part of my practice, but my life is my practice, so it must be! i found acceptance to be my first step and then i found "depth" in all of the individual experiences. Its a constant thing, no plateaus where you cant go "higher." Its life.

The only reason why i add my views on this is simply because if relegated to choosing what religion i "am," i claim buddhism. However, as i believe all "true" practice is, its an individual thing. I do not belong to any group of buddhism, but i practice it.. "it" simply meaning life.

p.s. good to see you again granny!

p.p.s. loved the descriptions hling.

I started with my Vipasana practice again but have to say its hard to be discplined. I know "Intent" is the most important thing but the action is hard sometimes.

I would highly recommend the 10 days silent retreats. I did one in Thailand at Wat Sounmoukh. Nice enough introduction. Really want to do one with Goenka organisation but....

ANy other beginners out here....tell me how you keep the discpline of meditating every day.

It's not easy, Madhu. Everybody slips. I know ordained Buddhist priests who have let their sitting practice slip, and I struggle to maintain mine. The main thing is to NOT beat yourself up when you let it slip. Here is what has helped me. 1) After laughing at yourself and the human condition, begin again gently. Begin with ten minutes every morning for a week, then, if that is going well, move it up to 15 minutes, or 20. Ten minutes in the morning and ten minutes at night can be good. 2) Think about how interesting it is. What comes up when you meditate? Notice how your mind works. It's never boring. 3) Join a sitting group or a sangha and sit regularly with them, even once a week is a help. 4) Take occasional retreats (like Vipassana or any other retreat near you) to jump-start your practice and re-inspire you. If it were easy to maintain a steady meditation practice, that would not be the focus of just about every Buddhist group on earth! My blog entry yesterday was about this very thing: Right Effort. It may or may not be useful. KEEP A SENSE OF HUMOR. If it becomes too serious and difficult, you'll grow to hate it, and you'll quit altogether. Jack Kornfield refers to this is "training the puppy." When you're training a puppy, and you tell her to "sit," and she wanders off, you don't agonize or beat her up; you don't wonder if you should get rid of her. You laugh, and then you gently and firmly take her back to the spot and say "Sit." If she sits, you reward her, praise her, love up on her, and give her a break. Do the same with your own adorable self. That's my suggestion. And P.S. I'm currently sitting 20 minutes every morning and incorporating very short meditations throughout the day, for example when the phone rings, when I'm opening the computer, when I'm washing dishes, when I'm walking to the bathroom at my office, etc.

Thanks! Grannygold

I have done a few things in the past couple of weeks...

One day retreats at Spiritrock, couple more in the next couple of weeks and also a weekly class for the next 6 weeks once a week.

Hopefully I can jump start my practice...good to know even the monks fall off the wagon.

Yaaay, Madhu! Look how you're caring for yourself in making those choices! I love this, from Reb Anderson's book, BEING UPRIGHT: "When you love yourself and are kind enough to yourself to be who you really are, you're showing others what they need to do in order to be free."

Hi Madhu,

I heard a story of a monk or teacher who had a deal with themselves, which was only this: to go into sitting position at least once before going to sleep. No requirements for length of time, or doing any meditation at all, but simply to get into posture.

I do this, and almost everytime I do, the meditating that usually follows is far easier than the decision to kick off the blankets and get into posture. And kicking off the blankets and getting into posture is made much easier when I know I have the option to go right back to sleep: I know I'm fulfilling the agreement by just getting into position.

If you are a more serious student (I am really just a beginner, so this really works well for me, 5 minutes of meditation a day is still pretty new to me), maybe this approach might not be enough, but perhaps it will be?

I also heard Sharon Salzberg say that sitting/meditating everyday was an assertion of one's values. That made a lot of sense to me, and helps give me an incentive somehow. I really do believe, in my heart of hearts, that sitting for a little bit of time with regularity to meditate is how I can change the world, and every time I do it, I am taking a concrete action to do something good for beings everywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by HLing:
hi Christina - in - Brooklyn, had any great longaniza lately?

HLing, I just spent 2 months in the Philippines, so I'll say OH YES DID I EVER!!! Mmmmm.

quote:

Let's see, Hinayana is when you make sure you are all packed with the essentials for the journey, you've taken care of all the mail, the pet care, etc.

Mahayana is when you are now thinking, "..I gotta bring an extra this and that in case someone else on the trip forgot theirs..", or "I'd better call ahead to make sure all the flights are on schedule, and the hotels are confirmed...boy, i hope everyone will have a great time on this trip.."

Zen is when you've arrived at your destination all safe and sound and you find yourself not quite all there, still thinking about something back home, or of some trivial, immaterial things, and you thought, "..Hey! wake up! You're HERE at the beach (mountain..or wherever), do you remember how you got here? Were you even aware of how wonderful that breeze feels on your skin?! HELLO!? Everyone is here, everyone is having the time of their life..ARE YOU ALL HERE?! WAKE UP! Walk and run like you mean it, it's your body here, not some lifeless luggage!"

Tibetan Buddhism is when you're munching on an apple and you see this squirrel from afar, you whistle at it, and it runs towards you like your long lost lover, and then you squat down to take a look, thinking it wants to be fed, but no, it's got its own acorn in its mouth as it ran all the way over to stand on its hind legs, within a safe distance from you, but obviously sharing this meal with you as it takes the acorn with its hands and start chomping on it, standing there, and you chomp on your apple and thought, Hmm, interesting cross-species communication there....

That was awesome. Sometimes with Tibetan Buddhism I feel like saying: "uhhh, I think you lost me back at the jewel tree in the lake on the mountaintop."

(Likewise, no offense meant to any Tibetan Buddhists on the boards.)

GrannyG, thanks so much for the references! I would like to be exploring more. I'll be sure to check into your blog as well. I hope to do a silent retreat sometime this year when funds allow.

Beautifully said, Christina! Superb suggestions. I'm deeply moved by them.

I'm most pleased GG.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by christina-in-brooklyn:
["...Sometimes with Tibetan Buddhism I feel like saying: "uhhh, I think you lost me back at the jewel tree in the lake on the mountaintop."

(Likewise, no offense meant to any Tibetan Buddhists on the boards.)...."

Christina, I remember when I went to an Empowerment by the now deceased H.H. Khenpo Jigmey Phuntsok I was there because my mother sent me plane tickets to go. Being the rebellious type, I almost never do what others make me do, but somehow, there I was. All the unfamiliar words had my head spinning. His earnst personality carried it all at the time. It was the transmission behind and beyond the words that came across. In a way, it's good to feel lost, as it humbles and opens up a part of us so that we make room for something that we can't quite grasp with our usual limiting senses.

" I really do believe, in my heart of hearts, that sitting for a little bit of time with regularity to meditate is how I can change the world, and every time I do it, I am taking a concrete action to do something good for beings everywhere...."

I agree with that whole-heartedly! I don't know a more honest way than to be the best that I can be so that I can give what i know is good. We put a measurement via time, 5 mins, 1 hour..etc for everything, but all can happen in an instant. I like the German saying, "Ein Augenblick", "a blink of the eye"..it's not so much the time it takes to blink, really, but that act of closing and opening, of a complete motion in itself that is renewal, and realization.



Thanks Sinahptik for your comment!