BootsnAll Travel Community

Ok, here's a doozy..
For the most part, when I go anywhere, I am for the most part, the only African American...Poland, Greece, NZ.
Not that there aren't other African American's there but for the most part, i'm IT!
I know that the places that I pick just don't always have that big/diverse a population and I have never let this stop me. I am about to even embark on a journey to NZ for a year, where I will be for the most part the only one in the country....not to be funny...*which fo the most part I am fine with.
I am struck with the fact that when I was last there, that being race conscious seems to be an American thing,..(I know that issues with race/society issues happen in places like Africa and elsewhere..)
I guess I am just wondering out loud and welcome any other feedback from forum members.
the people in NZ were NOTHING but welcoming and hospitable/friendly to me.
However I was wondering what others thought....
Just curious...

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

Good topic.

Although I'm not African American, I, too, noticed a huge 'color vacuum' when I travel. I'm from San Francisco, so I'm used to everyone being a different color and when I go places like Argentina and Russia I've found myself seeking faces in the crowd that remind me of home.

However, your comment that race relations elsewhere are better is not the case. I've personally been pulled over by a cop for race reasons - at gunpoint.

I even had a business meeting, in Eastern Europe, where I was asked my ethnicity at the beginning of the meeting. When I said "American" meaning that I was a mutt, they pushed me to describe my family history until they were satisfied.

In addition, the racism against the indigenous (Native American) population from Mexico through Argentina is truly horrible. I lived with a family in Peru from the upper Spanish class who said things about their Quechua maid - IN HER PRESENCE - that could have spewed from a plantation owner in the 1800s. I was horrified by the ignorance of this family and their friends. And unfortunately, I heard many other similar stories from other travelers.

However, I think Europe may be different, from the rest of the world, because the African descendents were not brought there against their will. It is a much better start when your parents are excited to begin a new future, rather than filled with hatred and despair.

Lastly, I wanted to mention an experience I had in Russia that made me smile.

I was consulting for a Russian retailer in Moscow and had been working with them for about 2 weeks when one of my English speaking co-workers said "My son wants to meet you, do you mind?" I thought his 10 year old son must have heard about this strange American chick, and wanted to see if what people were saying was true, no problem.

So we met, and his son was nearly silent for the entire time we spent together. At the end of the meal, his Dad asked him what was wrong. His son paused and slowly said, in a clearly disappointed manner, "She's not Black. I thought she'd be Black."

It is interesting that since this child only has experienced America through media (MTV, E!, etc), he thought the likelihood I'd be Black was close to 100%. I smiled for the moment, but NOW I worry about how African Americans are portrayed in the media. My (African American) friends are nothing like the images I see on TV. How difficult it must be to be constantly battling those stereotypes with a White population who also experiences a similar cultural indoctrination.

Any thoughts?

Yes..
Wow..what a story....sorry to hear about the getting pulled over at gun point.
First, I didn't mean to imply that things were perfect elsewhere except for in the US. Wether it's racism based on skin color or ethnicity cleansing based on family/tribal history (Bosnia, Uganda etc.) there are atrocities all over the world that we in the US pay no attention to or don't even hear about most of the time because it's "over there" and not here.
Unless your moviestar of choice decides to speak out about it..it leads me to think that most people in the states are truly unable to look past their own shores. Truly sad..
I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought that way.
I definitely--definitely agree with you in terms of how "we" are percieved by the media.
I mean (as hard as it is to avoid..) American culture is rampant (wether it be MTV, movies) and I think that this is sad in the sense that people who have never met anyone outside their race (i'm mean African American, etc.) expect us to be a "certain" way...bling bling, etc. or whatever way it is that they have seen on t.v. or in the movies.

Like yourself my friends and I are much different and when I look around at t.v. and such, I either opt to read a book or do something else...less I wretch.
I think that leads to a bigger discussion about how minorities are represented in the media..but that's another post.
When I was in NZ, I remarked to my guide that there wasn't really a big African American population, he retorted that he surmised that not many (meaning Black Americans) travel.
I know that there is a small percentage that do..but I wondered if that was because of money, or because of the fact that it was a bigger issue as in a lack of interest..or preoccupation with other things I dunno.
Travel is expensive...but still..
When we were on our way through the great plains in NZ we pulled over at a rest stop and there scribbled in graffiti was the "n"word. So it's everywhere....even way out there...

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

BTW, Hopefully lots of people will jump in on this topic.......all are welcome..

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

I just found this topic--cool one

race relations are confusing, especially because in some areas, race is not necessarily defined by skin color. When I was a kid and my friend went to Britain on a holiday with her family, she came back and told me that the Irish were seen as a different race over there and treated poorly (she witnessed this first hand as she is rather Irish herself), like how African-Americans get treated sometimes in certain areas in the US.

In fact, Irish immigrants and African-Americans have a long history of animosity based mainly on the fact that they had to compete for jobs and housing. They lived/worked in the north in parallel ways and were subject to similar(albeit not exact) prejudices. It's amazing to me that they never got together and rose up against "the man" to make a difference for the better in both their lives. I wonder how things would be different today if instead of underbidding and backstabbing each other, they had banned together.

race, culture, and ethnicity. What are the differences? We have such a black and white dynamic in the US because of our history, but Europe also has a history of importing slaves from Africa and other regions, they just outlawed it sooner than we did, which might account for their distance from it.

When I was in France, I was shocked at how openly racist people were towards immigrants from the Middle East--even saw an older French man insulting street vendors with words like "dirty Arab" and conversated with some French youth who felt that the "Arab invasion" was going to be the ruin of Paris. (They also felt that African-Americans were all rappers and were trying to destroy their pristine French culture with their "vulgar lyrics and baggy pants"--not shitting you, I nearly died laughing)

I don't know which is worse, being openly racist or masking it (like we often do in the US). On the one hand, with overtness, everyone know's where they stand--no secrets, which is good because then you know what you're up against. On the other hand, if everyone stays hush hush and subdues the racist rhetoric, then maybe minds will eventually change, generationally. Like, one's grandparents were racist and vocal; then one's parents were somewhat racist, but not very vocal; then one might be hardly racist at all, making the vocal thing null and void. Mind follows mouth type of deal.

Being "white" in the US, I guess I rarely feel like a minority (well, maybe in SF a little). One time I was in the Virgin Islands off season and might have been one of a dozen whiteys in this little town during a community festival, and I got a small taste of what it feels like being a minority--being watched as you walk down the street, feeling out of place and kind of uncomfortable. It was eye opening for sure. My husband is very tall and white, so I'm assuming we will be experiencing more of that in Asia (I'm told by a friend who taught there that in China, he will be all the rage and men will tell him how tall and handsome he is...can't wait!)

well, those are my 2 cents.

Hey....thanks for jumping in..I actually thought that this one was dead and buried.
You made lots of good and thoughtful points...

I was just wondering what others thought about this...

Thanks again...

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

I am struck with the fact that when I was last there, that being race conscious seems to be an American thing,..

I really think that it's different in various parts of the US. (Btw, my point-of-view is that of a white American female)

As far as internationally, it's completely dependent on where you are! In London, I've never felt that impression at all, but of course I've never lived there, so I can't say.

In Paris, it's a completely different story. I've met a couple of black guys in Paris who grew up there who said that there are several nightclubs where they would never be admitted unless they had a white companion. I was surprised, but they said it is quite common there.

When I spent some time near the Ural Mountains in Russia last fall, I believe I saw ONE black guy, and I have to say that my heart really went out to him because everyone was staring at him. He was dressed nicely (but not overly so by any means) and was just waiting for a bus. If the darts in the elderly people's eyes were real, he would have been dead. I'm guessing he was a salesman or a visitor (as I recall, he had a briefcase), because I was there for several weeks and walked all over the place and never saw another black person. I didn't even realize the fact until I saw him! I wondered why everyone was staring at him, and then it dawned on me that I only saw white people -- no one who looked like he was from Asia, the Middle East, Africa, or anywhere else. There was also antisemitism there, but I have to keep in mind that these people were shielded by a Communist government for a very long time about what was really happening in the world. It was simply a very closed society.

Here is perhaps something slightly related (or maybe not). Whenever I travel out of the US, the men who seem to be the most interested or the most aggressive in meeting me are black men. I am very fair-skinned with natural blonde hair and blue eyes -- obviously, the exact opposite of a black man. Is it the mere fact of opposition that is probably attractive? I just recently realized this. If I happen to be alone, it's nearly always a black guy who approaches me (as opposed to a white guy). And yet they usually seem surprised that I speak to them. I haven't quite figured out why this is. The countries where it usually happens are Western Europe, by the way. Yet, some of the guys are American, thinking that I am European! Odd.

test

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

Sorry Modgirl...
I was testing my computer to see if it would act up or not.
Thanks again for jumping in...
First let me say that I can sympathize a little bit with the experience that you were realting about the gentleman and his briefcase...
I think that you're right, it DOES matter where you are.
I have heard about the Paris thing as well...especially the part about them treating African and Middle Easterners (Moroccans, etc.)like shite, which still amazes me...and makes me not like the French (well...not really but you know what I mean..)
The one experience that I had like that was when I was on a plane in NZ (from North Isle. to south Isle.) and the plane was full of Japanese passengers. There were these two girls who stared at me for the entire flight..and I mean the entire 45 minute flight..no lie....and then would whisper periodically....not sure what they were saying....I just brushed it off and let it go.

I think that this might speak again little bit to exposure and what you pick up from the media.
Obviously, African American populations are not wide spread in places like Russia and Poland...add to that the fact that American t.v., movies and influence is almost everywhere and that says a lot about how we are represented..and will make older generations (like the old Russian folks) think that we are all like 50Cent.
As for the men approaching you....I am going to say that that has a lot to do with the whole sex myth, where people women who have never been exposed(especially European women) have been purportedly "curious" about African American men...and as a result are easy to pick up/meet what have you....
Not saying it's true, but buddies of mine have told me that this happens....
I dunno..

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

ok, so let me clarify one "fact" I gave lest I perpetrate a fraud. The enslavement of Africans was not prevalent in Europe at all (my bad). While some historians think that there were some African slaves in Britain and Spain, in truth, Britain didn't need to import slaves. Unlike Americans who had too much land and not enough cheap labor, the Brits had the opposite problem--they had so many lower class British and Irish workers that the market was flooded.

However, they WERE egregious slave traders and marketers. In fact, the song Amazing Grace (sung gloriously in Black churches everywhere) was written by an ex-British slave trader after he gave up the biz and became a minister. go figure

ok, that's all the history that's fit to print.

A Mexican-American friend of mine spent several months in Europe. He cracked me up with his stories of people tripping out on him. He said that it was mainly out of curiosity though, like what is a Mexican looking guy doing in the land of milk and milk? In Germany, he had some funny encounters with people who couldn't grasp that he was born and raised in America, not Mexico.

cs

Quite alright Men..

No one was going to hand out a flogging bcause of soemthing that was misquoted, etc.
Although some people take it seriously..

No worries...

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

I was raised near San franciso, racism was not really an issue. Never brought up. Infact all the schools were so multi-cultural that there was much joking about asians, black, mexicans, whites etc.. It was all good banter.

I never imagined that I would meet a racist person. But if I did I imagine it would be a white robed male walking down the street with a burning cross (dont ask me how he would accomplish this).

Well, I did meet a racist. He was my roomate last year. And it was nothing like I expected. He wasnt obvious about it, infact he was very normally. The only I could ever tell was in these little off hand comments...

----One Life, One World, One Backpack----
AIM:Livenomadic
MSN: chrisalbon@hotmail.com

Hey all,
I can totally sympathize with being a bit apprehensive about standing out when you travel. I'm white, and I've been able to blend in to most of the places I've been. But when I was living in Vancouver earlier this year, I had a new experience of being the only white guy in a room.

I was staying with a family who'd immigrated from Hong Kong (the kids were all born here), and I went to church with them a couple of times. It was a chinese church, and everyone was very friendly and welcoming. The fact that I was white was never mentioned, and I'm quite sure I was treated the same as everyone else, but I still had weird feeling of being out of place.

So I can totally understand how if you're the only black guy in a crowd of entirely white people (or asian or any other visible group), even if they couldn't care less what colour your skin is, you'll still be aware of it. Go anyway though. No point in letting something dumb like that hold you back.

On a side note, I always find it funny that americans always use euphamisms to make reference to minorities. African-American for black people, Mexican-American for latinos(often mistaking for mexican people from other parts of central and south america, not to mention Spain). I have, however yet to hear someone use the term European-American to describe a white guy. Interesting.

Neil.

interesting point Neil. There's kind of been a "Politically Correct" revolution in the US over the past several years. Color terms are still used unoffensively of course, but with so many special-interest groups, someone is bound to get offended and call a press conference, or wage a lawsuit, or whatever. Plus, it IS kind of strange, I mean, we say black and white, but what about the many shades of brown, etc.? I'm not so sure that I'm comfortable extending the usage of color terms (especially some that have historically been used to degrade groups of people--like "yellow" for Chinese, etc.), I'd just assume use ethnic-origin descriptions.

Also, white folks in the US do plenty of describing of their ethnic origin as many are proud of their roots. I may not describe myself as an "Irish-American", but I'm quick to point it out if asked. At times, in protest when asked my race, I've written in "Irish-American" in the "Other" box as Irish are seen as a different race in some societies.

We use "Latino/Latina" alot in California. but I think it's wierd. It's supposed to encompass peoples from so many different countries--it seems a little, ummmm, generic (I guess saying "European" is generic as well).

Saying where you're from then "-American" is kind of the lazy man's way of handing out labels, but I can't come up with a better system, so I gotta run with it.

I think whities are labeled caucasians, right?

Anyway, racisim is see here in So-Fla. Check out the Cubans and the Haitians(not to mention the rednecks in Davie), their's a lot of animosity between them and it bubbles over to any black and any latino. Cubans set foot on our soil and there American, but Haitians get deported immediately, so you can see why their's a problem. I love'em both, but racism is out there. Even where I live, I'm Lebanese and the town next to me is mostly Jewish, I feel it, but not so much with hate as ignorance.
Peace.

Five bucks!

Wow..thanks all for jumping in...I was kind of afraid that when I started this topic, that people would be wary and afraid that they would "offend" others...
I guess that a discussion about race can either be too inflammatory, or too PC.
I supose that it's out there (racism) and that there is no escaping it, so the best that we can do is to try and be mindful and rememebr that people are individuals no matter what their ethnic background.
As for the labels...
everytime I am asked to identify my self (race)on some sort of form, I either leave it blank or select other..and everytime I want to refer to someone who I don't know......instead of saying "That Asian guy...or that Mexican dude..." I just use their name...just me I guess...

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

menudio,
I'm somewhat aware of the "Politically Correct" thing, and it's had a fair bit of effect here too, but I guess I consider a large portion of what it's accomplished to be absolutely ridiculous. Using ethnic origins instead of physical descriptions one aspect that seems really high on the stupid list. For instance, two girls that I know are very definately black (well, a pale black, but still well within the range), and that would be a fair physical description. They're only half african though, so an "ethnic origin" term (using the same system as you, it would be "african-canadian") to describe them would ignore half their heritage. (and that seems far more racist than describing them by the colour of their skin.)

And what about the people who are somewhere 5 or 10 or more generations removed from immigrants. "Where they're from" is here, not Africa or India or Europe, and using terms like chinese-american or whatever to describe a visible population doesn't allow people who don't identify with foreign roots to be thought of as simply American.

Sorry, anti-PC rampage. I have lots more complaints about the so-called non-offensive system, but I won't waste more of your time.

Moe,
Referring to people by name is great if both people in a conversation know the person in question. But sometimes you use physical descriptions to help identify a person, or to better flesh out a situation. I just don't see a reason why refering to somewhat as black needs to be different than referring to someone as "big" or even "a guy" (as opposed to a girl).

I think this whole missive has strayed away from the original subject of minorities travelling. I hope you don't mind.

Neil.

PS.- Oh yeah, caucasian comes from the same era as negro, but only one has fallen out of favour. I guess my point is that any word can be used as an insult. Just ask the psycho wing of the feminist movement that seems to honestly believe "male" can be an insult.

Almost,

You made both your point and mine when you referred to your friend as "pale black" and thought it nonsense to call herself "African-Canadian" as it only represents 1/2 of her heritage. But, wouldn't her using the term "black" to describe herself only represent 1/2 of her skin tone? You can see my point I hope.

People can choose to identify themselves any way they want, but your friend, in your mind and the mind of many others, would be called "black" if we went exclusively by color terms. Which is fine if she's fine with it, but she is not, in fact, "black", she is a mix and maybe she, and others like her, want the option to NOT be labeled by a color term that marginally applies to them.

I think that the sentiment behind describing people as, say, "Chinese-American" is an attempt to make them as American as, shall we say, apple pie, while not denying them the option to identify their ethnic background. It's all about having the option in my mind and tacking on "Chinese" doesn't degrade their American status--and shouldn't if we apply the "melting pot" theory that Americans claim our country is based on.

Now, the history of race and ethnicity in Canada is quite different then it is in America (hence why the term "negro" can be consider loaded), but you still encounter your fair share of disparite identity issues. I mean, I know many a family in Canada that have been there for generations, but yet still proudly identify themselves as "French-Canadian" and won't have it the other way round.

The issue of physical descriptions is another one. If someone's skin color is relevent as an identification factor, I agree with Almost and say whay not use it? No need to be hyper sensitive, especially if you need to recognize someone in a crowded room. If it really bears no relevence, then why include it?

This really has strayed from the topic, but still, it's a great rhetoric to enagage in.

I don't mind the straying..as long as it's constructive which it has been for the most part...
I still don't agree with the use of the physical part as a descriptor...like "that black guy..as opposed to the guy with glasses which he very well might be wearing..."
I think it's just something that we are used to doing in terms of labeling people by noticable physical characteristics....of which skin color is one of the most noticable traits.
I guess we would do the same if the person that you were referring to was on crutches..."That guy over there on crutches..." However, would you then say "That black guy over there on crutches?" Most likely not...
I guess it doesn't have to be that big a deal in some cases depending on the purpose of identification. It's all relative I suppose.

"Happiness is to know when you've found it"

I don't really want to argue too much (though it is kind of fun), so I'm going to anyway, but I'll try to be brief.

Menudio - I only know one family that would identify themselves as french-canadian, and it's a reference to the language they speak, not where they come from. Most french-speaking people I know are Québecois(e) or Acadian.

I guess my conclusion is people can call themselves whatever they like (or just avoid what they don't like - a co-worker, when asked what term he uses for native said "call me anything but indian.") But whatever term you use is as much a label as any other, so I see hyphenation as being a more longwinded, and by times less accurate, way of dividing people into the same groups under different terminology.

I also have a theory that PC terms legitimize labels, but I can't really back that up, so I won't try to argue it, but it's a thought anyway.