BootsnAll Travel Community

WE have a week there and the camel trek is a must. Open for the other few days with route advise. Would love to see a medina as we love to people watch. Could use some advise on clothing as well

YES, you are right...the camel trek is a MUST. As I have said before, we had an awesome experience with Les Nomades and I can not recommend them high enough. They are the BEST and also not very expensive.

You might want to check out our blog on Morocco ( in the archives from last April) for ideas for a family. It is a long way from Marrakech or Fez, so factor in the travel time. Fez medina is far superior in authenticity than Marrakech if you only have time for one.

IMHO Fez, Ait Ben Haddou and Merzouga area are the "must sees", the high atlas mountains are also quite spectacular and Essouria is pretty ( and kind of Morocco light).

The desert gets cold at night ....very cold even in April although the days were warm .

Fez is like going back to the middle ages and the crafts and sights make an incredible homeschool experience. Do a traditional bath as well which is the closest you will get to what a roman bath was like.

Your route will depend on your time frame. We liked our Fez, Sahara, Ait Ben Haddou, Marakech route and saw lots of the country that way. ( We started in Tangier and went to Essouria and some other places as well).Les Nomades was the cheapest for handling the Grand Taxi for us , but your riads could book them too. I have listed the riads where we went to.

Have fun!

What would be the least amount of time to do the dessert and one medina...6 days????
We will be going feb...2008 end of the month....having even begun to look at the weather everywhere....I will be coming first to Munich from Miami , then istanbul, then Rome and then Morocco...I will have warm clothes but i will need to ditch them asap as everything I am bringing is going on our backs!!!!! I will continue heading west...india,thailand taiwan ... thanks Where did you stay in Fez...I will look at your website and thaks again for taking the time to write

I suppose you could do Fez and the Sahara overnight camel trek in 6 days, but it would be pushing it. Look and see if there is a flight directly from Rome or close by to Fez.

If not there is one from Girona in Spain, so maybe look into a cheap flight to there and then onto Fez. Or look into a cheap flight to France and then onto Fez.

We stayed at Dar Seffarine which is a spectacular place at a very good price for Fez . It is a very special place with an awesome terrace on top in the middle of the medina. He has a PhD in architecture and is full of information as he brought this place back to life and many places in Fez. His wife is from Norway and they both are wonderful and speak English well ( and he speaks Arabic). Great food, great conversation with other guests. It feels like staying in someone's special home....which is a work of art. It feels a little like you are plunked into the tales from the alhambra. HIGHLY recommend.

I suppose you could do two days in Fez , ( look to our website for things to see ), then a travel day to Merzouga area ( about 8 hours drive ...or you could take bus if you are on a budget as otherwise transportation costs in Morocco are very expensive).

Then do a night or two in the Saraha with Les Nomades HIGHLY RECOMMEND , travel back to Fez and fly out.

You will need your warm clothes for all the places mentioned in Feb as they could all be quite cold and rainy. The desert will be most likely be very cold at night. Les Nomades heated our tent and had lots of warm blankets so we did not get cold. We did get cold though before going to bed, but they gave us lots of warm blankets.Bring silk long underwear, that will help and not add weight.

We carried only a small daypack each into Morocco and also later for a month in Turkey. We wore all our warm clothes in and just wrapped and tied around us when it was warm. Turkey was easy because it was hot ( we were there in summer). You will need less than you think...travel light.

Lots of Backpackers in Morocco and all the places you mentioned. Be careful of the food in Morocco ( better to stay at nicer places to avoid travel diarrhea and bugs). Bring hand wash stuff ( that needs no water).

Have fun!!

I visited Morocco with my mom before I moved there. It was a lot of fun for both of us. I suggest that if a desert trek is a must then you fly in to the Marrakech Airport. From there you can arrange a tour from any reputable hotel OR (and this might be a more adventurous option) you can take a bus or share taxi (bus if you're claustrophobic, share taxi if you dont mind being crammed in with a bunch of locals) over the Atlas Mountains and into Ouarzazate. From Ouarzazate it's an easy drive by car rental down to Zagora where there are some decent dunes and treks. Or you could head east to Marzuga but that tends to be a bit more touristy and therefore there are more scams.

Also some things to see in and around Souther Morocco:

The Ourika Valley--My family and I used to go there every chance we got. It is in the Mountains surrounding Marrakech and might be a little chilly in winter but still spectacular in it's views and trekking possibilities.
Oukimdin--I didnt spell that right but it's a snow resort in the Moutnains around Marrakech as well. It's also a lot of fun, you can throw snowballs. Who dosent love throwing snowballs?
Ait Ben Haddou is nice. It's near Ouarzazate (one of the places I used to live) and I'd reccomend staying in the medina there. It's small, but beatufiul in a quaint way. Dont buy any garments or woodcraft in Ouarzazate though. I'd buy it in Marrkaech where the quality is better.
Zagora is a good place to go for Camel trekking. It's good times. You can play in the dunes outside of Zagora. Basicall you drive through the town and onto this small almost 1 car road. Keep driving and you hit the dunes and there's a hotel there (ask about it in town) and that always seemed like a neat place to stay.
Marrakech--oh there is tons to do here. Go to the Agudel gardens, the Menara, the souqs, DjemelFna. Eat the snails (barboush in Arabic), drink the spicy tea (khutengel) and try the fry stalls. Watch your stomach. Do not drink the tap water. Drink Sidi Ali or Sidi Azeem water brands.
Also visit the Khortubia Gardens and mosque area (unless you are Muslim you will not be permitted in any mosques except for the one in Casablanca which was built by stolen money).
If you can take a day trip a few hours to the north to the Cascades de Ozoud. One of the prettiest waterfalls I've ever been to. Fantastic stuff. Take some food, or buy some food and a mat and sheet at a local store. Then go down the steps to the bottom of the waterfall, spread out your mat, put the sheet on some branches near you (to create shade) and have a picnic. You'll be surrounded by locals (since touristas dont usually picnic and the bottom) and you can go swimming in the pools. Quite nice indeed.
Also Essouaria is a great town. Very funky. Very windy as well. But you can go down to the fishermans area, buy some fish and take them to the stall to be fried. It's delicious stuff.

--Now clothing:
You are woman in an Islamic police state. A relativly friendly one, but realize your position. Wear clothes that hit below the elbow and knees. Chances are Feb will be pretty cold anyway. But still be wary of it. Some woman wear tank tops or t-shirts. I would caution you against this. Not because Moroccan men will attack you and Moroccan woman will chide you but because it is disrespectful to their culture. They dont show a lot of flesh, you ought not to either. Dont worry about covering your head though.
Also remember that the further south you go the more conservative people become. Zagoran woman will be thrice as likely to cover their face in public. Oh and if a man ever crosses the line into physical touching you have the permission of every Moroccan to beat him with your purse or shoe. Yell too. Shame him. It probably wont happen, but if it does do not be afraid to make a commotion. No Moroccan woman would think twice about it.
Also remember not to take any pictures of woman --especially woman with their heads uncovered--without permission. Also any locals in the Sahara. Make sure you ask them for pictures too. Some have never seen a camera some think it steals their souls...so best to be sensitive to that.

Be aware that Morocco is fun and delightful and the people are marvelous but they will also try to take all the money you let them. Be wary of scams. Haggle for your life. Do not let taxi drivers push you around. If you think something is shady then just walk away. Or say sorry.
Good phrase to know:
"La, shukran" it means no, thankyou. If a woman comes up begging (and she surley will) there is no obligation to give her money. Even if you feel bad. Trust me when I tell you that there is poverty, but there are even more scammers.

Remember to eat with your right hand (never left, ever, never) and sip tea with your right hand, pour tea with your right hand...ect.

Have a good time and if you need any more information let me know!

It is probably easier to find flights into Marrakech, but it is MUCH more chaotic and MUCH less authentic than Fez. I have found that most people who have seen them both prefer Fez. Marrakesh is VERY touristy with lots of rip offs and chaos, not to mention endless traffic and loud and crazy motorbikes in the medina.(There is not traffic or cars allowed in the Fez medina.)

The really beautiful and picturesque dunes are in Merzouga area.I have not been to Zagora but have heard from plenty that it is not nearly as beautiful a Merzouga area and since I only wanted to do this once, I wanted the best. It CAN be touristy and desert tours done like a junket and people do get sick, that is why I recommmend Les Nomades instead of just going with anyone.

I found them thru JohnSakura at Virtual Tourist who is a world traveler who has spent lots of time in Morocco and now lives in the Merzouga area. He said they were best and so did a girl who lived in Morocco who was on lonely planet. I knew they were right as soon as I started email communication with them and we were blown away by how wonderful they were. They over deliver, have the best food and give you personal and unique service. They are extremely honorable and trustworthy. To top it off they are also very cheap. We felt like we made very special friends for life.

Probably the best way to get around is by rent a car. The roads are good ( made by the French) but they do go thru the mountains from Fez or Marrakech and that can be a thrill ( maybe more so with a grand taxi where no one has seat belts and the breaks were squeaking on the one I ordered from a top riad in Marrakech).

Grand Taxi's are also extremely expensive and the normal way is to be packed like sardines with 6 people in them for these looooooooong rides to the desert. You can book the whole thing for yourself, but you have to buy all the seats ( we did this).

They do have a bus from Fez or Marrakech that is cheap, but we did not try that. If I do it again, we will rent a car. If you speak French that will help a lot.

Yes indeed, "La, shukran" will be an important phrase to learn and you will say it a lot. Still, we did not find the touts bad there and expected much worse. Even in Tangier it was not bad at all & we met a lovely cab driver who took us to the train to Fez. We expected much worse because everyone warned us, but it was just not our experience and we were there in high season. I think it is worse than Turkey, but not as bad as Egypt.We carried a laptop with us and felt very safe the whole time ( Les Nomades held it for us in a safe place while we were in the desert overnight).

We found the people, especially the Berbers very sweet and very accomodating. We met lots of nice people all over Morocco who wanted nothing and just ignored the touts ( who quickly gave up on us).

If you do take a train ( there are none to the desert) make sure you take first class ( which is not bad, but more like 2nd or 3rd class in most countries).

Be very careful with the food and Morocco is not a place that I would skimp on lodging as I know too many that have gotten sick and one ended up in the hospital there for travelers diarhea. Take antibiotic handtowels or soap that does not need water and use them a lot. Don't eat food that is not hot, fresh etc. The salads and OJ looks tempting, but I would not touch them ( some put bad water in the OJ and salads are famous for getting people sick as it is hard to get truly clean). We were careful and did not get sick.

Despite the challenges of Morocco, you will have a fantastic time!

quote:

Originally posted by WT:
It is probably easier to find flights into Marrakech, but it is MUCH more chaotic and MUCH less authentic than Fez. I have found that most people who have seen them both prefer Fez.

Actually it's not. My family lives in both Fes and Marrakech. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'less authentic'. Nor do I even know if I should argue with a tourist about what is and isnt' authentic in Morocco. But Marrakech is extremely authentic, infact more so then Fes for a number of reasons.
1. Marrakesh has always been a trading posts where tourists and nomades have come for a very long time. And if you look at who is enjoying the entertainment at night and during the day you'll find that it is mostly Moroccans, not tourists. And sure if you stay in Djem El Fna and do not wander into less touristy parts of the Medina or Guiliez then you will not get an well-rounded authentic experience of everyday life. But it takes 5-10 minutes walking from the main medina square to get to neighborhoods that white folk just dont venture into. In fact, in all the time I spent in the medina I usually only saw touristas in the first 1/5th of the souqs. The rest of the souqs were left for Moroccans.
Venture further, you will see authentic Marrakech.
Plus the further in you go the more you will meet people who dont come into contact with the average demanding tourist. That means they will be nicer, welcome you. Go deep into the neighborhoods and shop locally. Did you know that inside of the Souqs of Marrakech there is a special Thursday Souq that's set up just for Moroccans. We'd go there all the time to buy stuff. I never ONCE saw a white person. Not once. And it's only a 10-15 minute walk from Djem ElFna.
I guess I just love the city. That's where everyone lived and I have many fond memories of it. Plus, maybe I'm just used to the chaos, but once you get to the Guiliez or many gardens around the city (Agudel, Menara, Khortubia..ect) things quiet down. You can sit under olive and orange treess to picnic.
I like Fez too, and Fez is where most tourists think they get authentic Morocco. But the truth is Moroccans are gregarous and joyfull and love noise and tea and motos. Fes is very quiet and secerative. It's sort of like comparing the Hamptons to New York City. Sure the Hamptons have immpeccable housing and art. But New York City has all the grunge and real nitty gritty. Hamptons people will have an air of politeness around them, but it's in NYC where you get your belly laughs.
Plus I would suggest Marrakech because there are many day trips you can take from there that arn't avalible from Fes. ---Oh and the food stalls at Djem el Fna. But be very carefull about eathing there.
Here's a quick word of advice on that:
The resturants where you sit down that surround Djem El Fna are natorious for getting touristas sick. Best to stick to fry stalls. I know that sounds counter productive, but busy fry stalls mean that you know your food is being cooked and served fresh. And cooked hot enough.
Also there is a good Shwarma place in one of the walkways leading to the main sq.
It might have been called Ali Babas. I'm not sure. But htey have fantastic food as well.
Have fun and let me kow if you have any other questions!

Thank you to all of you who have been very helpful and informative. I have found this discussion format to be a large part of my planning outside of the library.
I have given myself 8 days in Morocco since i read your emails and lowered my time in Egypt. I just felt the human aspect of my trip was better achieved in Morocco than Egypt...... Although some will differ I am sure.

let's talk camel trek...My thoughts are that my daughter will always remember this as well as the people of this wonderful country.Should I shorten the time if that is possible for this part of my journey?
Do all the camels stink or only wet ones????? I have heard different opinions....even the smell of the camel's gas..LOL

quote:

Originally posted by homeschool:
Do all the camels stink or only wet ones????? I have heard different opinions....even the smell of the camel's gas..LOL

ALL camels stink. Oh they stink to high heaven. On top of that camels, while practical animals, are so slow and dimwitted. I could show you video of my friend sticking his hand in a camels face while the camel oh...so...lazily...and..sloooowly tries to bite it. It was halarious.
That said camels also have big ol' eyes and if yours has a sweet disposition you will grow to love it immediatly.
--Also dont drink camel milk. It might be offered to you. It's a laxative. A very strong laxative. A good thing to know going in.

So camel treks. Well here's the thing, one of my most fond memories of Morocco was the drive from Oarzazate to Zagora. It is absolutly breathtaking. It is true that Marzouga has nicer, bigger, fatter, more well kept dunes. But the drive there is loooong and incredibly boring. Zagora has decent dunes a few minutes out of the city. They can arrange camel treks quite easily at any hotel there. You can usually go for 1-4 days. I would suggest 2 or so.

Here are some pics of the trip down to Zagora from Oarzazate, and the dunes outside of Zagora proper:


On the way there..



More...


Final stretch of road leading out to the dunes from Zagora proper---so very remote


Dunes, dunes, dunes

Well we loved Morocco but hated Marrakech and I have heard that repeatedly from many, many people who have been to both cities or that live in Morocco. We really wanted to like it, but were VERY disappointed.

The people that I know that live in Morocco also prefer Fes, but obviously Morocco is a big city so there are plenty of people and endless party people & tourists who love to week-end and shop there. If you like crowds, traffic, loud motorbikes, souk shopping & haggling and constantly being hassled & ripped off, I can see loving Marrakech.

I think it is telling that Marrakech has a 96% non return rate for 1st time visitors ( and most are Europeans who can get a cheap flight back). It has a reputation for ripping people off and it is well deserved.

If you have all the time in the world, I think it IS worth seeing and we loooved a VERY expensive riad that we stayed in there ( upgraded because we were lied to by our first riad). We did like a few things and I am glad that I saw it as now I know it is not my cup of ( mint) tea. . The luxurious riad was the best thing. If you have a short time, and just time for one city, I say go for Fes and stay at Dar Saffarine.

He has a Phd in architecture and speaks Arabic as well as English well and knows everybody in the medina and has a passion for the ancient buildings, hand crafts and history. He spent a day giving us a spectacular tour and there place is an authentic work of art, food scrumptious and international guests wonderful...so I am sure that impacted my impression.

I think visiting a place is much different than living there, one has a short time to get the best feel of a place and I think that is much easier to do in Fes than Marrakech. I actually have never met anyone who has been to both Fes and Marrakech who did not like Fes better,but of course there has to be some.

I can understand someone loving a very touristy, wild place when you know it well and where to go, speak the language and have family living there. I personally would not feel safe walking the back streets of Marrakech, let alone with a 13 year old daughter.

They call Fes, the imperial city of imperial cities and it is the spiritual and cultural capital of Morocco. If those things mean anything to you, then think Fes. If you would rather shop and have snakes thrown on you, be hasseled, have loud music and sounds all night ( unless in the most expensive riads), then think Marrakech.

I think Fes is better for families on several fronts besides not having any traffic or motorbikes in the medina ( which does make it feel much more authentic instead of touristy). It was founded in 809 and in many ways is like walking right into the middle ages as little has changed here. It is the home of the oldest university and has amazing ancient architecture and crafts people.

There are also good daytrips like Mekenes and Volubilis which are only an hour away or Ifrane ( looks like a swiss town in the mountains) or asra ( sp) where they have the only monkeys except Gilbralter. ( Some feed them by hand, but I would not).

I am glad that you are taking more time for Morocco, as you will enjoy it and it is easier to deal with than Egypt.

My husband and child did not notice the camel stinking particularly ( they rode). I got close and fed some and I also did not notice any smell to speak of.

All of Morocco smells to a certain extent and much of it is filthy ( not unusual to see a bleeding fresh goat head laying on the sidewalk of a shop, or someone defecate outside etc).It will attack your senses like no other place, so be prepared for that. A nice clean riad is a good antidote and you will be ready for more in the morning.

Don't worry about the camel stinking, that will be the least of your problems...keep your eyes on the prize..the Sahara done well!! Email Les Nomades and they will take great care of you. Since you are a woman alone and you have a child with you, I would stick to the better places ( better food, no bugs, the quiet that you will need, clean etc).

You can stay in a really nice place in Turkey for 20 bucks, but that is not true in Morocco in the cities. If you find that you will probably be in a hell hole with bugs.So budget accordingly.


I would just spend two days in the desert ( one in an overnight camel trek) one for time in an authentic town like Hassilabied getting to know the Berber life with Les Nomades and their family ( have tea with them, check out the community ovens, oasis,play with the children or feed them, general life etc).

Then I would spend at least a day maybe two near ait ben haddou (another world heritage site like fes medina)like kasbah ellouse. It is a beautiful and peaceful area to explore and many movies have been shot here ( so your child will see it again and again & know she was there).

You will have a great adventure & will have fantastic pictures!

That is a lovely area Prisa and looks very much like the area around Ait Ben Haddou or the KasbahEllouze that I mentioned.

It is a long ride to Merzouga or Zagora from Fez or Marrakech, but I don't think one is any more boring than the other. There are actually similar sights on the way to Merzouga from Fez as I have similar pictures as we approached and it was very exciting and exhilarating.

We also stopped in Ifrane on the way, saw the monkeys and a few other things that made it an interesting drive. The curvy roads ( coming from Marrakech or Fez) and wild traffic and crazy sights like trucks, donkeys or bikes packed up to the sky also keep it interesting to someone who has never seen these things in Morocco. It is part of the camel trek experience...just bring an ipod or book for hte boring parts or take a nap.

I have to agree with this guy who lives there and tells it like it is about the Zagora/tinfou dunes:

quote:

Possible destinations for Sahara or dunes in Morocco are:

Erg Chebbi Dunes in Merzouga

Tinfou Dunes near Zagora

Mhamid Desert

Chegaga Dunes

Merzouga!?

From all these ones, the best are Merzouga and Chegaga. The others are also nice but should be left if you wish to experience really cool destinations. Tinfou dunes are just 2 DUNES! so you go all the way to see sahara and you’ll see just: 2 dunes. surrounding landscapes are great but if you’re on a short journey, its to much kilometers just for that.

working season in erg chebbi dunes merzouga are:

new years eve week
2 weeks in april during vacations
last 2 week of july and 2 weeks of august

Since the OP is going in Feb, she does not have to worry about tourist in Merzouga and I was there in high season and saw no one except those on distant junkets across the Sahara.

What is great about the erg chebbi dunes in Merzouga area, is the gorgeous orange color that photographs spectacularly ( we used this one for this years xmas card) and also the endless ocean of desert feeling. You go and go and can not see anyone for miles and miles, just endless silent beautiful dunes. It can be a profound Spiritual moment and I can not imagine having that on two white dunes.

But I do agree that beautiful area should not be missed that you are talking about ( that pretty drive) if possible, but that can be found at Kasbah Ellouse. If you are only going to do one camel trek in the Sahara, I say go for the best!

Actually WT brings up an important point that I know most tourists miss when they come to Morocco and that is this:
Marrakech is not like anywhere else. You cannot go to Fes, Meknes, Tangier, Casa, or Rabat and prepare yourself for it. Just like you cant to go Seattle to prepare for Miami. Or Pheonix to prepare for Las Vegas.
It is fast and bustling and busy and hard. It really is. But I think the reason that people dont always like it is because they stay on it's surface. The first time I went to Marrakech I wasn't a huge fan of it. Then the more I realized the layers the city had, the more I fell in love with it. The woman there are modern, the people are more welcoming, and while there are scammers you just have to deal with it the same way a Moroccan would:
Laugh.
Laugh and walk on by. If they get in your way then walk around them. Meh. Western people are far to afraid of hurting ones feelings in a place like Marrakech or Morocco in general. We are not used to skipping pleasentries. Well if that person is hassling you there's no need to be nice anymore.
But if you can get under that surface, just under that madness and appriciate the city for what it is, not what you want it to be, or not what you thought it would be, you will find out why Marrakechi's proudly declare that their city is the best in the world.
Just dont take everything seriously, and dont worry about offending people by ignoring them. And do not feel unsafe walking around Marrakech with your daughter. The idea of attacking a child is ludicris to most Moroccans. They adore children. And they dont see woman as anything but children until about the age of 17. I know most tourists are afraid to go further into the souqs and further into the back ally's and further into the culture--but the more you do the more rewards you will find. STaying around Djem ElFna never did anybody any good.
Also be aware that you cannot look 'green'. If you look green they will toss snakes at you. I never, even as a tourist, had snakes tossed at me because I knew to give them the 'bitch glare'. Master that bitch glare in the mirror before you go. Enjoy!

Actually, I found Marakech like many big cities...loud.big,filthy, ugly and not unique or family friendly at all. I went all over the city not just the medina and the smog, traffic and crowds sucked.

I think that is part of the difference in our perspective, as well as my not being someone who has lived in and has family there.

Most people here would have a tourist perspective like mine and think in terms of family travel which is a very different thing than single or couple travel. You have only your own life and education to think about. It is different as a mother, as a family and as a homeschooler.

I have not had a snake thrown on me, but I know many people with children that did have that done to their children. I know one mother that was livid that a snake charmer would wrap a snake around her 12 year old daughters neck and scared her to death. I know kids that hated all the noise,crowds and buzzing of motorcycles ( did not bother mine though), parents that worried about their kids safety.

I did see lecherous ones towards younger girls I am sad to say and some cruelty to their own children, but I agree that on whole Moroccans do love children.

You feel good eating out of the stands, but I would never let my child eat that food in a million years. The last thing I would want for her is a visit to a Moroccan hospital. I know a woman who had a needless episiotomy there and had to get stitched up without anesthesia!! ( They had none at the hospital she was at).

The motor scooters are loud and do not seem to care if they hit children or adults as they zip by in crowded narrow streets. It has the highest traffic death rate in the world.

Perhaps if I had you or someone who knew the city well to show me around and speak the language and explain the customs in detail, I might have enjoyed it more. Maybe not. I do not smoke or drink and I am not big on chaos,smog,filth or noise. I also do not speak French or Arabic which puts me at a great disadvantage.

Fes is also filthy, but at least it seemed very unique,ancient and authentic. I liked waking up to the sound of birds chirping, watching a sunrise over the medina in a beautifully restored family home. I am sure having a great tour made a difference there, but we did also try that in Marrakech with one booked from our expensive and highly rated riad. He was a waste of money.


As far as I am concerned the best of Marrakech was the beautiful, luxurious riads with great breakfasts on the pampered terraces overlooking the city and mountains in the distance.Oh & a funny taxi driver named Ali who was everywhere.

I will go back to Morocco, but I will be one of those 95% that will probably never return to Marrakech. Different strokes for different folks.

Perhaps it is a place that you must know really well to love like a crochety, tacky auntie.

Just a few things and I'm out of this:
1. Authentic is not a good word to use. You found Fes more 'authentic' compared to what? A vision in your head of what Morocco is supposed to be like? A comparision to ancient Moroccan culture? Of Arab-Moorish civilitiy? The movie Aladin? There are tourist traps in every city and believe me. But it dosent make a place any less authentic, it makes it a different experience.
2. My job while living in Marrakech was to take care of two kids. Zaineb and Nuelhla. Zaineb was 4 Nuehela was 5. I taught them English, computer skills, and took them around the city while their mom was off working/shopping/visiting friends/whatever. It wasn't just this single girl's paradise of easy free wheeling when I was there (heck I was living with Muslim family, I couldnt smoke or drink). Nuehla and Zaineb and I would go on the moto (yes we would ride the moto) into Djem El Fna, I'd pick them out bracelets and we'd eat. I never once saw a man leering at them or being in any way perverted. Nor did a snake charmer ever throw a snake around their shoulders. In fact, I wouldnt bring the kids near the snake charmers because 1. they are kids they touch everything and 2. it's not novel when you see it every day. I wonder why this mother you speak of would let her kid get so close to them in the first place. Basically I took young children to Djem El Fna and all around the Guielez and Agudel portions of Marrakech and I never ran into trouble or felt unsafe.
3. In Morocco it is not considered bad to smack your child. Again, we're not in Venice anymore. The culture is diferent. And while I may not agree with it, I'm the minority and if I dont like it I can leave.
4. Marrakech has the best hospitals (and Unversities) in the country. One of the brothers works in one as a doctor. And yes, sometimes they run out of medicine, but I guarantee you if they were out of medicine in Marrakech they were out of it other places as well. Morocco is not Europe. The health care is sub-standard.
5. I rode my moto through the streets almost daily. I was never hit and the entire time I was there I saw 2 accidents. One happened in an outside neighborhood and the other was non-fatal and just a blunder on the part of the driver, nobody was even hurt. It's not quite the 'smacking into kids at abandon' free for all you've made it out to be. Also one has to know how to walk through a crowd. I learned it in Vietnam, but it served me well in Morocco too. If you walk at a steady pace across the street people will go around you. If you run, halt, stop, or otherwise walk errtically they will hit you. That's not their fault though. It's the walkers. (Not to say that one should do that with buses or cars. Just motos). With cars you stop and wait for them to go by. Take cues from the throngs of Moroccans crossing the street or cross with them to feel safer.
And if you want birds chirping you need not go more then 5 minutes by taxi to the Agudel area of Marrakech (I lived in those neighborhoods and woke up every morning to birds and children) where they have peaceful gardens and residential neighborhoods, great hamams and little markets. fantastic area. There are basketball courts for kids to play on and the walk ways are lush with roses, jasmine and orange blossoms. I'm guessing you didnt make it to that part of Marrakech though.
Anyway it's a matter of opinion, and I totally respect that you like Fes more. My mom liked Fes more too. My sister in law is Fesi, she loves her some Fes. And it's a shame you had such a bad time in Marrakech. You probably shouldnt go back. But I wouldnt discourage others from going with talk of bad hospitals, homicidal drivers and rowdy snake charmers because it's a tiny little part of what Marrakech actually is. Perhaps if you spent more time there you would have realized it.
PS. The snakes are defanged.

Ok, seems we can agree to disagree on this one. ( yes, I know they are defanged of course, but the child did not & most tourist do not know the area as well as you do, so obviously the family did not think they would run into such cruelty in the middle of a tourist trap. Nor is a local child treated in the same way as a blue eyed blond or obvious foreign child).

Yes, I do think I went to that area you spoke about, but the one in Fes was right in the very heart of the old medina!! I did not have to go outside it to hear birds, that is part of the point of authenticity. Today Fes is so much like it was in the middle ages and you certainly can not say that about Marrakech which is an over crowded tacky, loud, VERY touristy city.

I am afraid you also proved my point about the family difference when you talk about taking a 4 and 5 year old on a moto into Djem El Fna.

That is something a paid babysitter would do, but I can not think of any American mother that would take that kind of risk with her precious flesh and blood. There is just a huge difference between babysitting and being a parent, so the perspective would be very different.

As Pennylane said in a related thread below:

quote:

As a pediatric trauma nurse, I cannot say strongly enough that the legal requirements of a country isn't the issue - it's about what is the safest for your baby. I spent 3 days last month with a mom trying to come to terms with her 16 month old being a parapalegic all her life because she chose not to put her in a car seat. I've also seen children disfigured and/or seriously brain injured from going through glass windshields. Of course, I only see the kiddos that survive. Going through this hellish experience at home is horrifying enough - imagine in, say, Thailand....

Or imagine that in a substandard hospital in Morocco. It does not take much to make a little body go flying.I have had friends killed on "motos" ( one just in Greece while we were there), so you will not see us with our babe on one, let alone in the country with the highest traffic deaths in the world.

( It is so bad that the King made a life sentence mandatory for anyone driving when a tourist is killed.... and they were protesting that when we were there).

No right or wrong here, we just see it differently. I do trust you that there are some redeeming qualities to the place for some people. I don't say skip Marrakech if you have a enough time, but if you are short on time, it is good to know that you are not missing much. I say skip Casablanca as well.

Most people do not like Marrakech enough to spend the kind of time that seems necessary ( even for you) to like the place. Most people just do not have that luxury of time and if they do, there are so many better places to spend it.

It is kind of like Athens for me and so many others, a day or two is about all most people can stomach, despite its good points. We spent over a month in Santorini and I could spend a month in the desert in Morocco, but 2 nights was more than enough for Marrakech. Even most of the expat riad owners do not like to live there full time!

Cities on a whole are not the best places for kids & the best of Morocco is in the desert, countryside and high Atlas in my humble opinion, although a peak at the cities are worth it too.