BootsnAll Travel Community

I wonder if any one has real empirical evidence either through personal experience or research that travel vaccinations are indeed important and work more effectively than a strong natural immune system? And to what degree and at what cost if any?

I'm pretty health conscious and I'm more than skeptical about putting monkey blood and mercury into my body!! Now those are ingredients in many domestic vaccine programs. I haven't found much information around travel vaccines like Hep A,B, Yellow Fever, and Malaria.

But there is growing concern and evidence that despite the reality that vaccinations are recommended and established preventative care that they are actually just the opposite and can cause serious long term damage.

One blog I read said that according to the American Federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), only between 1% and 10% of serious adverse reactions to vaccines ever get reported from the doctors that prescribed them.

Appreciate your input.

To be accurate I need to rephrase: it's actually 1% to %10 of reactions "after" taking vaccines not "reactions to" vaccines. Which means it's potentially less obvious and open to other causes.

Let's see some citations before we continue.

BTW, there is no vaccine for malaria; only prophylactics.

quote:

I'm pretty health conscious and I'm more than skeptical about putting monkey blood and mercury into my body!!

YES, I so agree and even more so for my young child as there bodies are even more sensitive to vaccinations. I know several children who were normal until they got their vaccinations and now will be invalids for life.

Indeed some people have had horrible reactions and even death from vaccines, so I do not think they should be taken lightly. Getting them or not is not a black or white issue.

It amazes me how many people get vaccinations without doing any research what so ever.

I am still researching this issue about the pros and cons. You do not HAVE to get any vaccinations for any travel I don't believe, they are just "suggested".

Here is an interesting article you might be interested in:

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/vaccines/overseas.html

One thing you can do as well ( easier in Europe than US) is get your blood titers done. This will allow you to know what you have immunity to. Many people have immunity to diseases they have never had.

There is no easy answer here and all choices have risks.

This is a really important question.

I must have a killer immune system. I smoke too much and drink too much. I've spent most of my life doing hard blue collar work outside in 100+ degree heat in Texas and -30 in Russia. I almost never get sick. I have NEVER had a flu vaccination and I haven't had the flu in 25 years. (most people I know who get the flu vaccine are sick for days afterward)

However I have had some vaccinations. Smallpox, which I am really grateful for (most of ya'll never got this vaccination), polio, and most recently, Hepatitis A--don't leave home without it. Because of my work I get a regular tetanus vaccination. I believe I will be taking the typhoid fever vaccine soon.

But it was a different story with my kids. With children there are recommendations and even laws which require certain vaccinations at certain ages, even in early infancy before their immune systems are geared up. I ignored most of those. My infant daughter became so dreadfully ill with the first dose of the DPT vaccination, I got a doctor's written pardon exempting her from the second round. My son got all of his childhood vaccinations well behind schedule because I believe[d] that his tiny little system wasn't anywhere near ready to cope with all the government scheduled disease prevention. By the age of 6 , he did finally have the entire regime.

I think one needs to weigh the likelihood of contracting a disease and it's consequences, against the unintended repurcussions of the vaccine itself. As an adult your immune system is probably much stronger than a small child's, and your adverse reaction to vaccination will probably not be as severe.

Right now I would love to get a TB vaccination--but I can't. TB vaccinations are required in many countries, including most EU countries, but are not available to Americans, or in America. And becase of my job medical clearances, I can't get a TB vaccination because it will show up on a physical as TB exposure and disqualify me for overseas postings. Even though the countries we work in have high rates of antibiotic resistant TB we can't take the vaccine due to the required US medical testing and clearances. Is that fu@ked up or what??

I gauge taking vaccinations on:
How easily is this disease transmitted?
How likely am I to be exposed?
How sick is the vaccination going to make me?
Am I better off with or without it?

You'll have to decide for yourself.

I think that is a very good question. Often times, people are just expected to blindly believe what they are told, and often not given a chance to decide for themselves. Here are a few of my thoughts.

First, the large killer: Malaria

As for vaccines, true there is not one yet, but there will be, I think. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3742876.stm has a very good article on a succesfully tested human malaria vaccine. Something to look forward to! For now, mosquito bite prevention and anti-malarials are the best bets. As for what works to prevent mosquitoes and biting:
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/128/11/931
is a fantastic article that goes into the specifics of "how effective is DEET vs. Citronells vs. Skin so Soft" in preventing bites. It gives some hard numbers, too.

Different travel vaccines are more effective than others. The effectiveness of the vaccine is sometimes determined by the number and frequency of the shots. For example, Hepatitis B vaccine is most effective after 3 shots. If you only have 2, you are less protected, but still better than nothing. Same goes for hepatitis A. Some vaccines, such as yellow fever or a meningitis vaccine are good after one series/shot.

Most vaccines are very effective and well tolerated. The question should not be "are the vaccines safe?" The question should be "is it worth the risk".

As with anything, there is risk vs gain. Are you chances of being exposed to rabies worth the hassle, risk and expense of getting some rabies pre-exposure prophylaxis? For me, traveling in Chicago, it is pretty low. If I were a vet or animal handler going to do some research on trapping wild dogs in South East Asia, then it might be something to consider.

I was once taught that everything is a poison, it is just the dose that matters. Water, in large amounts is toxic. Japanese Encephalitis can be lethal and has a greater chance of killing you than the vaccine for japanese encephalitis.

Great post. Nice to have doctors floating around here as well. My rather ancient, somewhat dated copy of Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine is a little worn around the edges.

Great feedback and information...thanks everybody and, indeed, especially nice to hear from a real live traveling doc.

I'm also curious to hear if there's anyone who has decided to take the risks of not having vaccinations at all and what there experiences have been.

Astro, I would implore you to get a hepatitis A vaccination. Even in America.

Hep A is widespread, easily contracted through everday eating, and destroys the liver. We humans get but one liver, and it is crucial to survival.

Your immune system isn't gonna defeat the everpresent hepatitis A. The vaccination doesn't hurt, doesn't make you sick, doesn't even cause a sore arm. And it's cheap!

I agree with Sophie's post, above! There are some diseases that will shorten your life span and make life more difficult. Some of these diseases can be prevented with vaccines. Hepatitis is one of those diseases. Hepatitis A and Hepatitis B are two travel vaccines/immunizations that most every traveler should have, no matter where they go.

Hepatitis is often overlooked because it is acquired via blood/body fluids. I think a large number of people believe that they are traveling not to have unprotected sex, share needles, etc. that place them at risk for hepatitis or other blood borne illnesses. I frequently tell people that the conditions in hospitals in other parts of the world are not like home. Needles get re-used. Needles can carry hepatitis B. Think of the traveler that is involved in a car accident and needs an IV afterwards. That needle could be re-used and carry a blood borne disease. Vaccinate against Hep B prevents this worry.

Also, the prevelence of Hep A is common. I am assuming that you are from a country that does not have widespread cases of Hep A (USA, Europe, Australia, etc.) The vaccine is important to get because your body does not have antibodies to the disease (like most people who grow up in an area known for Hep A have).

Yellow Fever is another disease that is preventable with an immunization plus it is required for a lot of international travel if coming from an area known to have YF.

Tetanus is another good example. A very well tolerated booster that people should consider getting before travel to developign areas or at least every 5-10 years.

I am one fo the last people to always use antibiotics, get vaccines, etc out of fear for what I am putting into my body and wanting my immune system to "toughen up". Some things, as was pointed out earlier, your immune system cannot deal with. I am not talking about influenza, either.

One of my most favorite pages about vaccines can be found here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/ and contains a load of information. Either way, I think you are already doing a lot of good research and questions before you just "get jabbed". It is good to see people taking responsibility for their own health!

Thanks Sophie for your caring. My liver is smiling

This all comes on the heels of just watching Sicko last week and my already overly-skeptical view of drug crazed American Health care and it's lack of holisitc understanding is now through the roof!

So I need more than a little coaching to trust putting anything other than food and water in my body these days.

I was just catching up on some reading and saw this:

http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/contentYellowFeverVaccinePeru.aspx

There have been a few (4) deaths associated with the YF vaccine, in Peru. I wrote some more about this over at my blog, but found it pretty interesting. The short story is the vaccine is different than the one in the USA. There is no hard data back, yet, as to the cause of death.

Hmmm, kinda ruins all the nice stuff I was trying to say about getting vaccinated!

I came accross the new Annals of Internal Medicine Journal and saw these articles, I thought might be interesting to those following this thread:

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/147/10/735?etoc

and another very informative article:

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/147/10/725?etoc

thanks adventure doc. for all the articles I will scan them.

On the more critical side I came across this interview with a man named Jon Rappoport who claims to have helped develop some vaccines himself and has since changed his mind on vaccines.

this article around vaccination education has more clinical info. and statistics. There's tons of building information and criticism around vaccinations for children, sites from
mom's, etc. but very little for adults and in traveling situations.

Which, if in the case that vaccines are harmful, may be because adults are stronger than children and health impairment is less obvious and immediate.

Here's
an article from a Danish Doctor.

hope i did the links right!

And here's a couple quotes I recently came across as well:

"No batch of vaccine can be proved safe before it is given to children." Surgeon General of the United States Leonard Scheele, addressing an AMA convention in 1955

"The only safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used" Dr. James A. Shannon, National Institutes of Health

"When you inoculate children with a polio vaccine you don't sleep well for two or three weeks."--Jonas Salk (Oct 1954)

Great quotes! Thanks for the links, too. I am going to pass some of those quotes along in a presentation I have on vaccines, in a few weeks. Thanks!

I personally would think twice about getting the hepatitis A vaccination that others have suggested, or at least do lots of reseach before going down that road.

Of course, I have had very few vaccinations ( they did not give many when I was a kid in the 50's...unlike today) and have not given my child any thus far. ( I have lots of natural immunity because we got the diseases then and thus I could pass much of that onto my child thru long term breastfeeding and keep her immune system intact unlike most kids today).

I did get hepatitus in my early 20's when I ate raw clams in Haiti at a very fancy place. My boyfriend at the time who was much older and wiser ( and a well known surgeon), told me not to, but I thought he was just being a fuddy duddy. He was right, I was wrong.

I would not do the same behaviour today ( I was much more aware of risky behaviour in our recent trips to Morocco, Turkey, Montenegro etc). That said, I also would not get the vaccine, nor did my husband or child.

I did not even KNOW I had the disease until I turned very yellow and it was discovered through a modeling job. ( It was me that was yellow, not the film)

That is the only symptom I had of the disease. It freaked my boyfriend out as it is not something a surgeon wants to get, but he didn't , nor did my room mates. I felt perfectly fine the whole time I had the disease, never felt sick.

I am 55 now and have not had ONE complication from the disease. I am also grateful that I can pass the immunity onto my child, so she does not have to risk the vaccine.

If you go to Mothering magazine forums on vaccinations, you will find lots of good information.

There is a good book called Vaccinations..how to make safe, sensible decisions about the risks, benefits and alternatives...by Aviva Romn.

It is a parents guide, but worth perusing for more information.

Sadly there tends to be a real connection between drug companies and doctors, so most do not get any kind of training on the true pros and cons of vaccinations. There is much at stake because a lot of money is made off of vaccinations. There is more mass marketing here than most realize.

There is a great classic book by Robert S. Mendelsohn MD called "How to raise a healthy child inspite of your doctor" that we carry with us as on our multi year trip around the world. It has some good info you should read and here is a tiny amount:
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/mendelsohn.html

A lot of the info is about kids and vaccines, but you will find that there is valuable information for you as well in these kinds of places.

Chiropractors, homeopathic doctors and natural health people also have good information on this topic.

There is no one right answer for every individual as there are risks either way you go, but I would keep doing research and think long and hard before just getting them blindly like so many do.

Keep pouring through all the information because once you get a vaccination there is no undoing it if you are one who has a bad reaction. I know people who have been devastated by them and it is heartbreaking.

quote:

Originally posted by WT:

I did get hepatitus in my early 20's when I ate raw clams in Haiti at a very fancy place. My boyfriend at the time who was much older and wiser ( and a well known surgeon), told me not to, but I thought he was just being a fuddy duddy. He was right, I was wrong.

I would not do the same behaviour today ( I was much more aware of risky behaviour in our recent trips to Morocco, Turkey, Montenegro etc). That said, I also would not get the vaccine, nor did my husband or child.

I did not even KNOW I had the disease until I turned very yellow and it was discovered through a modeling job. ( It was me that was yellow, not the film)

That is the only symptom I had of the disease. It freaked my boyfriend out as it is not something a surgeon wants to get, but he didn't , nor did my room mates. I felt perfectly fine the whole time I had the disease, never felt sick.

I am 55 now and have not had ONE complication from the disease.

Congratulations on your good luck with hepatitis so far. I'm sure there are many people who would wish for your good fortune. I hope your liver continues to be so well behaved.

I know several people who have died from hepatitis and the complications thereof, including a 25 year old coworker last year. He left behind a new baby and a 21 year old widow.....Apparently he didn't share the same goodwill with his liver that you do.

I think is is downright irresponsible to encourage people to think that hepatitis is to be disregarded as a frivolous figment of the medical imagination, as spoken by Motherhood magazine. You do our questioner a disservice by disregarding the widespred devastating and easily preventable consequences of Hepatitis A.

I hope your liver continues to respond with such good manners into the future.

I find it odd that you know "several people who have died from hep A" as that is so very rare and it makes me wonder what high risk behaviour or living conditions that were involved.

Aren't you the same person who just said that you smoke too much and drink too much?

Trust me, that is as bad as anything for your liver ( not to mention lungs,heart disease and lifespan )and not a great way to guard you from serious diseases.

I do not do either and my liver is in great shape, so I worry not.

I am really, truly sorry to hear about your friend and I understand how that would color your perspective. I have known people who have died or been permanently injured by vaccines, so that colors my perspective as well.

EDUCATION about the FACTS is what is important and not just panic on one person's experience. I did not tell the OP not to get the vaccine ( that is his/her choice and individual decision), I proposed getting fully informed. I told him how I saw it and left info about things that were useful to me in educating myself on this issue. I think it is useful to know that OFTEN hep A has no symptoms like my experience and usually it is not serious with no later consequences. People panic more about some diseases than they should, that is why educating yourself is important, sorting out what is illusion and what is not.

I did not say it was a figment of anyones imagination, just that there are risks on either side. Some do die of hepatitus and some do die from hepatitus vaccines, although both are rare,there is that risk. I never felt sick with it and nearly 30 years later I continue to have a very healthy liver and general health. I never get sick and take no medication. That should be useful information to someone trying to make this decision. I made a poor choice when young by eating a risky food, but the consequences were extremely minor. The good news is I have lifelong immunity and passed it on to my daughter through breastfeeding.

There was a point where more babies ( who were at no risk) were dying from the VACCINE than people dying from the DISEASE ( hep B which is an EXTREMELY high risk vaccine where many have died and have had dire permanent consequences). There have been congressional hearings that you can read about as even a congressman lost a grand baby to the vaccine and researchers who were working on vaccines and were very pro vaccine had dire consequences and changed their stance to strongly against this vaccine).

There are HUGE sums of money involved in this controversy, so the first thing to do is start getting more informed on that aspect and just follow the money- medical community link.

Perhaps you did not read it , but I posted a link earlier by a doctor who talked about the risks of vaccines for travel and was against them. Here is what she said about Hep A:

"Hepatitis A is a viral disease that has an onset of fever, malaise, nausea, and diarrhea, followed within a few days by jaundice. The disease ranges in clinical severity from no symptoms at all to a mild illness lasting one to two weeks. Although endemic throughout the world, Hepatitis A can be prevented by carefully following the hygiene and food recommendations listed in the sidebar "Minimizing Risks."


I think it was Pasteur who has a famous saying about it is not the germ that causes disease, but terrain. That is why some people are exposed to the very same germs and walk away scott free, while other succumb. If a body ( the terrain) is well taken care of and a person does the things to mimimize the risks like washing hands and not eating suspect food or water, eat a healthy diet, exercise , don't smoke or drink heavily, keep away from stress etc etc...they will have a much stronger immune system than someone who does not do these things.

There are also supplements like vit C , herbs and homeopathics that one can take to make oneself less susceptible or cure or shorten things.


I think encouraging someone who is healthy to take a vaccine that HAS killed and maimed people is irresponsible.

Most people do not die from hepatitus A... or the vaccine for it, but it is possible in both cases as we both can easlily prove. The smart reader will do due diligence on their research and make a wise decision on *their* calculated risk.

Here is the info she wrote on Hep B which I think is also good and accurate:

<Hepatitis B is a viral infection that is spread through contact with blood. In the US, Hepatitis B is primarily found in adults, and is spread through intimate contact or through sharing needles used with illicit drugs. Hepatitis B is more common in the general population in East and Southeast Asia and in Sub-Saharan Africa. Even in these areas, the risk for contracting the infection is very low, but if you do, Hepatitis B can make you very ill. Still, the risk of long-term complications is much less than we are generally led to believe. More than 95 percent of those who contract Hepatitis B fully recover, and an infection will result in lifetime immunity for that person. Unless you plan to spend extended periods in close contact with infected persons, the risk of contracting Hepatitis B while traveling is nearly the same as in the US. >

I was a nurse for many years so I do understand the traditional medical take on this which I also "bought" at one time until I looked deeper. I still like somethings about western medicine, but I think it is best if it is also combined with alternative and eastern thought and methods.

You are also under the misinformation that vaccines always prevent diseases. Some say they never do and in fact there is still no proof ( see the other doctor link I left above) that they work at all .

We have been thru several chicken pox outbreaks in various schools my daughter has attended and the ONLY kids who have gotten it are the ones who HAVE been vaccinated. There is a lot of research that shows this kind of thing happens again and again, the vaccinated ones are the most susceptible as vaccines harm the natural immune system. We are creating generations of over vaxxed adults who can no longer pass natural immunity onto their child/ren.

I have tried hard to give my daughter chicken pox by exposing her to kids that have it and having her eat after and even drink bottled water out of the same bottle when they are highly contagious. You can be immune to a disease even if you have never had it and I think that must be true with my daughter. I had chicken pox as a child ( no vax then) so she probably got immunity from me thru long term breast feeding. I am going to verify this soon with blood titres.



Taking vaccines or not and which ones when, truly is an individual decision that each person must make for themselves. Hearing ALL sides to this is really the most useful in helping one to sort out what will work best for them. One should be VERY informed before putting a vaccine into their body as there are life long consequences that will be passed onto your children.

Try that "easily preventable" line on the tens of thousands of people who have lost a baby or loved one due to their having a vaccination.

I will leave you with another enlightened and thought provoking article by an MD who went to Harvard in his case again vaccines:


http://members.aol.com/doctorrmosk/articles/immunizations_1.html

The moderator wishes to remind everyone to play nice.

I just wanted to list a few more documented facts about Hep A and Hep B since they were so highly recommended here. Again, it is not up to me to tell the OP or anyone else to get it or not to get it, just posting facts to consider.

First Hep A:

<"Hepatitis A is a viral disease that thrives in areas with poor sanitation and is spread when people eat or drink something that has been contaminated with human body waste products. Children often show no symptoms and the disease is more serious in adults.Hepatitis A does not cause chronic, long term infection and very rarely causes death. Infection with hepatitis A gives a person lifelong immunity and, in some populations around the world, close to 100 percent of all inhabitants have antibodies to hepatitis A. 2 In this country, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reports that 30 percent of Americans have evidence of past infection with hepatitis A and are immune. 1"

The best tool for prevention of hepatitis A is to wash your hands with soap and water after using the bathroom, changing a diaper or preparing and eating food.

Hepatitis Does Not Cause Chronic Infection and Rarely Causes Death: Hepatitis A has a mortality rate of less than one percent (0.6) and over 70 percent of deaths occur in adults over the age of 49. 4

Hepatitis A Gives Lifelong Immunity But Vaccine Does Not: Children often show no symptoms if they get hepatitis A and then develop lifelong immunity to the infection 2, but nobody knows how long vaccine-induced immunity will last. (All vaccines only give temporary immunity).

Hepatitis A Vaccine Can Cause Reactions: In clinical trials conducted by SmithKline Beecham, between 9 and 14 percent of adults and children reported headache after vaccination and between 21 and 56 percent had local reactions. Up to 10 percent had fever, fatigue, malaise, nausea and loss of appetite. Other reported reactions included stomach pain, diarrhea, vomiting, and joint pain. Post marketing vaccine reaction reports have included anaphylaxis, jaundice, convulsions, multiple sclerosis, Guillain-Barre syndrome, and neuropathy. 4 Since the vaccine was licensed in 1996, there have been 2,652 reports of hepatitis A vaccine related adverse events made to the government (VAERS), including 476 serious events and 18 deaths. 8

Vaccine Components Not Adequately Evaluated: Hepatitis A vaccines manufactured by SmithKline Beecham and Merck are made using human fetal diploid (lung) cells to propagate the virus. HAVRIX contains aluminum as well as phenoxyethanol as a preservative. Traces of formalin and residual fetal human diploid cellular proteins are also present. 4 VAQTA contains aluminum and small amounts of non-viral protein, DNA, bovine albumin, and formaldehyde. 5 Both HAVRIX and VAQTA have "not been evaluated for its carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or its potential to impair fertility."

· No Long Term Studies: There were no long term studies to evaluate whether hepatitis A vaccine given alone or in combination with other vaccines is associated with chronic illness or disability, such as the development of diabetes, asthma, seizure disorders, learning disabilities, ADHD, or autism. The Merck product insert for VAQTA states "Subjects were observed during a 5-day period for fever and local complaints and during a 14-day period for systemic complaints." 5>



( My thoughts...
So one thing you could do is first find out if you already have immunity, If anyone in your family has had autoimmune problems or reaction to ANY vaccines etc and be very careful with washing hands and such, especially if you travel in places where there is bad sanitation. We were very careful ( but also confident) when we were the Sahara desert in Morocco with lots of Berber kids, sleeping in a Berber tent and dirt floor in another room where none of the people have running water. We , personally felt safer taking those kinds of precautions thus far, rather than the vaccines, although I am still researching this issue for other places and which ones if any to take)


( My thoughts on hep b..

This is a VERY scary vaccine and one I would look into VERY seriously. True, like most vaccines it is scarier for newborn babies and kids under 6 who have not fully developed their immune systems, but many adults have also had severe reactions to this vaccine.

Our crazy Ped ( who I fired immediately) wanted me to rush out and give my child this as a blood test came back that indicated that I am my few day old newborn were exposed. Since I was informed, I knew he was nuts and the test was false and my baby could have died had I just listened to him. The test was wrong and gave a false positive ( maybe because of my history of of hep when young, not sure).

B