BootsnAll Travel Community

I think medical advice should be heavily moderated on these boards more than it is...I read too many posts asking about what people think about if they should take malaria pills, get vaccinations etc...I understand freedom of speech, free will and the purpose of these boards, but as a member they agree to be moderated by you guys and I think boots has a duty to regulate such advice...

Like I just wrote in my post, what happens if someone listens to a person on this board, doesn't get that vaccination or malaria pill and dies...I would feel horrible and I think you guys would feel horrible also and i think there is a distinct difference between giving advice as to where to go in a country, what flight to take, what bus to take and some random act of violence or bad luck occurring than someone not taking medication that could keep them alive.

Sure someone could have a bad time in Kyoto Japan, or get screwed taking a bus in Vietnam or get bed bugs in a hostel in Prague, I just think giving medical advice is different and should be regulated accordingly.

I also don't think it would start a precedent...We have moderators for a reason and this is just something that is bothering me more and more every time someone responds by saying "yea don't worry about malaria pills in SEA, or yellow fever vaccine is bogus etc...

Think about it...

Eppyboy,

You bring up some good points.

I've tried to put some fairly objective info along with threads on Malaria here. However, if you read through the evidence you'll find that the different medications affect different people differently. There is no gold standard so to speak. Consequently people are always fishing for information about experiences. Complicating the matter is the fact that there are different perspectives on medication period. From homeopathy to traditional remedies to western civilization medication, there is a gambit of perspectives on these boards.

I only know of one person with medical training and I haven't seen them on the boards for a long time. No one here is a doctor, I do believe that people asking advice on a travel board know that they are not receiving professional advice.

That said, I along with other moderators have moderate some outrageous claims and if you find some please let I or one of the other moderators know so we may counterbalance a silly claim.

-Slip

i hope i hear from HQ on this one, I think its a serious issue

Eppyboy,

I appreciate your concern, and I too hope someone more 'HQ' than a moderator responds. But here are some more thoughts.

Case Law has shown that public discussion in a public place is protected speech in that anyone has the right to say what they want provided it does not violate clear and present danger or is not threatening (or does not violate BnA posting policy). Further, internet chat rooms and forums are considered a public space, just like around the water cooler or in the public square. Advice and speech are considered lay opinions and not that of experts, and therefore is issuer of such speech is indemnified from wrongdoing.

For example, if we had a conversation on the corner and I suggested you buy home in the Florida Swamps and you did, but then the housing market fell out and you declared bankruptcy, you could not hold me liable for a decision that you were responsible for making. Similarly, if you had chest pain and complained about and I said its probably indigestion. Upon my advice you did not seek medical attention. The pain turned out to be a heart attack from which you suffered irreparable harm. I would not be liable for your decision as I am not a qualified expert giving expert advice.

In the same vein, people here are not medical experts nor are the owners, management, or moderators at BnA and therefore cannot be held liable for any lousy advice that someone may or may not follow.

If BnA portended to be some form of Medical Expert website for travel, then they would bear some level of responsibility for improper advice. However it does not. As the original code of conduct indicates, BnA is a place for like-minded travelers to share experiences and that is about it.

To be clear, people sharing their lay opinions and experience in no makes BnA legally liable for any advice given.

So onto the 'moral' liability of giving false advice that leads to harm. If I understand the hypothetical concern clearly, its that people may come to BnA to get 'expert' advice. Following said advice results in harm. And BnA should discourage advice that results in harm.

First, the individual bears a moral responsibility to be informed. If they see BnA as the answer to all their questions they are not living up to their end of the responsibility. I realize it is the American way to warning label everything (Don't put your hand in opeating blender or mowing machine, don't drink the bleach, etc etc etc). However when can we get back to a world where people bear responsibility for the own actions and quit blaming others for their ineptitude?

Second, there are many foreseeable risks involved in travel (from theft to bed bugs to venereal diseases), upon which many people have opined. Shall BnA restrict and keep those opinions limited as well? After all anecdotal experience is most definitely not expert testimony on travel security, entomology, or hygiene.

Lastly, even if BnA did put some sort of disclaimer in place, where would it go in a meaningful way? In superfine print on a already crowded front page? Should someone manage a list of 'special words' such as pills, malaria, disease etc, that automatically updates posts containing said words with a magic disclaimer? Regardless of where and how it appears, it would most likely be ignored by those need it.


Sorry for the lengthy post, but your concern was thoughtful and pointed and I wanted to try give it a proper response.

-Slip

I think a disclaimer is a fine idea, but like Slip said, we can't make anyone read it.

The problem is that as far as I know none of the moderators are medical doctors either so I'm not sure what we could do to moderate medical advice on the boards. The best we could do is poke our nose in and say that you should consult a doctor. I think that is generally already done.

The best you could do would be to just delete all posts that are medically related...therefore your judgment as a non doctor would be irrelevant

Whoa, Eppy, I have to say I really think you're overreacting here.

Just as Slip mentioned no one should take advice here as any more or less relevant than one might get around the watercooler or from chit chat with friends. There is a HUGE value in getting other opinions and personal experiences. First of all, doctors don't know everything and you may want a different approach then the one your dr is using. Its great to hear what else is out there. Once you gather some different ideas go back and discuss them with your doctor or maybe find a new doctor who's approach you like better. There is a lot more to health care than what your current doctor has the time to discuss with you in one appointment.

Good doctors actually love it when their patients come in with questions and alternatives. Your doctor is there to help you find and keep good health but its a huge field and educating yourself, starting with a cool tidbit you learn on a message board, can help you and your doctor.

There's alot to learn from our peers on this board whether they are doctors or not. Of course this should not be your only source of information, but neither should your doctor. Get opinions from people who've done it before, research articles (universities are great for this), then take your ideas to a doctor and discuss.

I for one would be very sad to not have the health care related topics on this board. This is knowledge that many general practitioners are not well versed in and I think it is exceptionally helpful to have other input.

quote:

I think boots has a duty to regulate such advice...

When you say "duty," are talking about a legal duty, a moral duty, or just a good business practice duty?

If it's the first, I can't say that I agree -- though admittedly I'm not up to speed on the latest developments in this area. Is there some recent case or new statute that has you concerned? Do you think that BNA has some duty of care to ensure that all medical "advice" (and that term is broad) posted by the thousands of users on this board is "accurate" (that term is broad as well). You think the failure to police, delete and edit the thousands of posts in this category is a breach of that duty? I personally think Slip has it right. (And I, too, like the disclaimer idea.)

If you're talking about the second two, it seems "HQ" probably disagrees. (Though they are mysterious, and may well be moving to delete every shred of medical advice on the boards as I type this).

Just curious, but would you favor a ban on legal and financial advice as well?

Eppy,

I'm gonna chime in with SLOBCORE (my cute little name for slip and skoob of BOOTCOM) and say you are over reacting.

Can I ask if you are part of the "medical establishment"? I'm just wondering if you are personally particularly sensitive to health-related issue.

I also think it is a bit silly to think that medical advice is the only thing that some could suffer negatively from, or even die of. We discuss the safety of many locations here on Bna, from crime to health to love to...whatever.

When facing a personal decision in a domain you are unfamiliar with, it is normal to ask one's peers for advice. The resulting morass of frequently contradictory information is 'ok'--it is part of the self-education process. You should not assume that a single post you consider bad advice will be lapped up by the OP as totally authoritative.

With your 'only medical professionals should be dishing out this advice' approach, it would be unethical to dish out advice about sex and drugs and Canadian nationality! They are all potentially fatal!

Another problem area I see with your thinking is that advice from 'medical professionals' is infallible. If it was, there would be no discrepancy between providers. That just is not the case and never will be. Ask your local travel clinic about shots, and then go ask your GP. Frequently, you'll two wildly different answers.

im in law school, im not in the medical profession...i am talking about a moral duty, not legal (there is not one) and not a good business sense...

just feel that crime, sex, drugs, canadian nationality are all distinguishable from giving medical advice...listen I will acknowledge that I did learn something from people mentioning their side effects to malaria pills which then got me to ask about Doxy instead...so there is a purpose to such advice...I guess my contention is with people that affirmatively say "you should not" take this or "that vaccination is unnecessary" don't worry about it...

I'm not going to sit here and contend every point made, while I think i could quite easily on many points brought forth...this was simply a suggestion/complaint hence why I brought it in this thread...

Clearly HQ does not want to respond, I don't care...i just hope people think a little bit more before they spew out medical advice which is 100% different from their personal experience about taking such a medicine...

that is where I think we agree and disagree...i believe that personal experiences or side effects to a medicine taken is perfectly fine, this will help someone on the fence about two possibilities to make a choice...it is the advice saying don't take preventative health medicine at all that I have a HUGE problem with.

Hey Eppyboy,

I'm here at HQ (more or less) and I wanted to mention that Sean and Jessica are both away at the moment. They are the two who'd most likely make an "official" reply, and I have a feeling one of them will as soon as they can.

I tend to agree more with the others in that having the ability to freely post and read medical advice as it pertains to traveling has a far greater upside than a downside. It would be nice to think that people reading public forums would be able to take them for what they are and not use them as their primary source of medical information, but it's a crazy world and you make some good points.

Some kind of disclaimer might be a good reminder to people who might otherwise take board advice as gospel. I don't think it would hurt anyway.

quote:

Just curious, but would you favor a ban on legal and financial advice as well?

This was the first thing I thought, too. Because taking advice on these fronts can be equally as devastating as some of the medical advice.

At any rate, I think a disclaimer is fine. I think removing all medical-related posts is a little ridiculous. I would hope that the level of intelligence of folks on BnA is high enough to not take advice from the Internet as gospel. (I think those folks stay on wikipedia)

I think this is interesting, though. American society is so litigious, it really puts a damper on things. Someday, none of us are going to be allowed to say anything, lest we be sued.

quote:

Originally posted by Eppyboy:
that is where I think we agree and disagree...i believe that personal experiences or side effects to a medicine taken is perfectly fine, this will help someone on the fence about two possibilities to make a choice...it is the advice saying don't take preventative health medicine at all that I have a HUGE problem with.

I don't think anybody on the boards is saying not to take "preventive health medicine". I think some of us are saying to reconsider before taking some vaccinations that are sometimes gievn in fear by travel nurses who have never set foot outside their county. In general..once again in general tourist places are not plagued by the dangerous diseases..yes if you are going to be in rural areas for months in months out in remote Africa, Asia, LA..then def should heed to suggestions on vaccinations.

I am no expert but living in India, exposed to the many "dangers" of living in a developing country I can compare what is written about precautions for India and I can judge that reality. Also, i grew up with medical personnel and stories all around me. From my experience of traveling in 3 countries in Asia and living in India for 20 odd years I think things are stretched a bit in the media.

There is a whole community of people who do NOT believe at ALL in vaccinations.Some have not given these vaccinations to their children. From personal experience not all people can take SOME vaccinations.

I personally hope that people who give and ask for advice on these boards are doing so with a open mind of gathering all the information from "lay" people and then asking for expert advice...be it from a doctor, lawyer or financial consultant who know more.

I say buyer beware.

quote:

Originally posted by Eppyboy:
im in law school, im not in the medical profession...i am talking about a moral duty, not legal (there is not one) and not a good business sense...

just feel that crime, sex, drugs, canadian nationality are all distinguishable from giving medical advice...listen I will acknowledge that I did learn something from people mentioning their side effects to malaria pills which then got me to ask about Doxy instead...so there is a purpose to such advice...I guess my contention is with people that affirmatively say "you should not" take this or "that vaccination is unnecessary" don't worry about it...

...

that is where I think we agree and disagree...i believe that personal experiences or side effects to a medicine taken is perfectly fine, this will help someone on the fence about two possibilities to make a choice...it is the advice saying don't take preventative health medicine at all that I have a HUGE problem with.

If I am getting your point you intended, you are saying that there is a "moral" line that should not be crossed when it comes to discussions of medical interventions - preventative or prophylactic. Basically, so long as people are talking about their own experience of side effects, the discussion is ok, but if someone couches their person experience in terms of a directive, then the moral line has been crossed.

Am I with you so far?

Further, you suggest that, should someone take advice from a non-professional that there is a moral obligation on the part of the advice-giver for the advice taken. Given that argument, anyone who holds an opinion can be held responsible for the manner in which their opinion is received by people around them.

Doesn't that remove any form of personal responsibility from individuals for things they hear or read? I could, for instance, talk about the prophylactic benefits of bathing in chocolate pudding prior to going to a bee farm. You decide, for god-only-knows what reason, that my chocolate-pudding solution is the BEST IDEA EVER and you decide to do it. You get stung several hundred times and die of anaphylactic shock. According to your reasoning, I should be responsible for your actions. Hmmmm.

The responsibility of moral decision-making lies with the source of information and not with the receiver of that information, if I follow that logic. Is there no moral responsibility on the part of the people making the decisions to at least vet their information sources?

Your thoughts?

In response to Sky Annie:

You were going well until you drastically exaggerated my point until it reached the level of mockery which I didn't appreciate...So I do not agree with your final conclusion and your reasoning.

People are not going to change my mind with their extreme liberal views of the first amendment freedom of speech...I mean I'm all for liberalism but there has to be a point where the line is drawn.

Again I am ok with someone mentioning what happened when they took some form of preventative medicine...and I do recognize that people don't take vaccines, which I feel is extremely risky.

I think Madhu exemplified my point exactly unintentionally by saying that "once again in general tourist places are not plagued by the dangerous diseases..yes if you are going to be in rural areas for months in months out in remote Africa, Asia, LA..then def should heed to suggestions on vaccinations." I would like statistical proof of this, not some blanket general statement...

Take that paragraph of what she just said and that is my EXACT point...Have you done studies regarding your claim that in general tourist places you cannot obtain a dangerous disease? So if I go to Mumbai during the summer and get malaria what then? So my death will disprove your point? Where will that stop?

If I go to Africa in the winter and get yellow fever, or get bit by some type of wildlife and get rabies because I didn't get the rabies shot, what then? Come back to the boards and say "you know what guys you were wrong and I almost paid for it with my life."

You know the only way your minds will change is if someone comes on to these boards and tells the community they got some dangerous disease that almost killed them for you to curb your thoughts and expressions when talking about preventative health medicine...That is the way you world works unfortunately...

I also want to make it known that I know there is a very valid argument that one could make by saying that this same logic I am using could be applied to anything on these boards in terms of advice about where to go, what to see and do etc...best way to get around, money advice etc...I just feel that there is a line and it is being crossed with medical advice...

I would not want the moderators to moderate health advice.

If people feel there is not enough of a dissenting voice about health advice - why not go ahead and make a post in that thread saying it? (I did notice Eppyboy did this once recently). I doubt that to most readers someone being a moderator gives them additional medical authority.

I would suggest the same to people who feel the boards got boring or too safe whatever ... the boards are not made up of a handful of moderators, they are made up of the whole community of people who post here. So instead of directing irritation at a group of people in a voluntary position (okay, I guess part of the role is for them to absorb people's discontent or whatever, but still) ... why don't we individually do something so our posting is in line with what we would like to see, if we have an issue with how something is going on the boards.

The mods aren't doctors.

edit: I should probably add on something like - I do think that people should take what they post seriously, and should realize that their words do have an impact in some way, even if they are not considered the authoritative source of info - but beyond what already exists in the guidelines I don't think this can be enforced or moderated ... people just have to do it.

It seems like this has become an argument just for argument's sake.

I would like to give the folks on BnA a bit of credit that they are intelligent enough to do further research. And, I agree with Anne, that while the advice giver should be thoughtful about what they post, the advice taker should also be thoughtful about what they accept.

The "extreme liberal views" comment made me giggle. It sounds like what I read on the SFGate message boards. Anytime someone disagrees, it is classified as an extreme liberal view. If anything is extreme, it is the thought that moderators should wipe out anything having to do with medical advice. Because, following that, we would have a moral obligation to pull any advice, really, be it medical, financial, legal, where to go, how to get there, deals, etc.

This argument sounds very much like those my friends in law school have. And that then the lawyer friends of mine roll their eyes at.

quote:

Originally posted by Eppyboy:
In response to Sky Annie:

You were going well until you drastically exaggerated my point until it reached the level of mockery which I didn't appreciate...So I do not agree with your final conclusion and your reasoning.

I am sorry that you took it that way. My intent was to make the example ludicrous so that it would appear to anyone to be an unwise course of action.

As for rejecting any conclusions because you were feeling personally offended? Why would you do that? You are obviously a smart guy. My intent was simply to prod the discussion to address the issues of personal responsibility in decision-making.

AnnieB - I agree.

typical on these forums that when someone makes a critical comment of another that they are ostracized...i would have preferred being compared to thorntree...i mean if you are going to take a shot, might as well make it a low blow anniebannie...i'm done with this thread my point has been made and that is that...i have accomplished my goal