Have a book recommendation...Read the "Global Soul" by Pico Iyer. He talks about some of this stuff...

I say we are "global citizens".

I think (in my own opinionated way) there's two major differences:

1. an immigrant is dealing with "arriving" in a certain place and makes a life there. an expat is always having "left" home and somewhere else, but the somewhere is by comparison far less important.

2. an immigrant truly lives in the society they have arrived in, makes their living there and is in that social/tax/welfare system for better or worse. an expat get extra pay for the "hardship" of being away from home because his/her employer assumes that it is of course a hardship to be anywhere but the home country.

Oh, and then I have this image in my mind that's stuck with me ever since I met a few expats in Senegal way back: Jetsons. Local life takes place outside, come inside the home and everything is from their homecountry except the maid. Completely detached from the surrounding territory and its people.

I’ve always subscribed to the following definitions:

Immigrant: a non-native who will stay in the country.
Expat: a non-native who is temporarily staying in the country.

I call myself an expat because I cannot stay here for good without breaking the law. So I cannot be an immigrant and must be an ex-pat.

Which causes me some problems with the previous post: I think the implied “expat bad, immigrant good” in this analysis is a gross oversimplification.

“1. an immigrant is dealing with "arriving" in a certain place and makes a life there. an expat is always having "left" home and somewhere else, but the somewhere is by comparison far less important.”

I like (and often love) where I live now and do not consider Australia any less important than my home country and in some ways it is better.

“2. an immigrant truly lives in the society they have arrived in, makes their living there and is in that social/tax/welfare system for better or worse. an expat get extra pay for the "hardship" of being away from home because his/her employer assumes that it is of course a hardship to be anywhere but the home country”

Expats pay social/tax/welfare costs here and can’t pick and choose where to pay – and that’s the law everywhere, my friend. But we will not get any return on the social security system into which we pay, as me must depart before we qualify for social welfare (I consider this as my gift to the land of Oz in return for its hospitality and sunshine in January). Furthermore, I and many others get no “hardship” pay and in fact due to exchange rate movements often make less money.

Some assumptions in the comments about ex-pats are quite contrary to my experience, and I do know quite a few expats here and around the globe (we expats are a chatty bunch and love to network instead of work). First, as mentioned above, we’re not all living off some MNC trust fund. Many of us have taken the expat opportunity only because it gives us a chance to live in a new culture - the company is just supplying the job. Which leads to my second point: while the whole “Jetsons” analogy is funny and certainly applies to some, the vast majority of expats I’ve encountered are spending their limited time trying to experience the local culture and meet people. That is, they are "truly living in the society". Which leads to my next point: the majority of those few expats I’ve encountered that are Jetsons-like have kids and they are trying to create a familiar environment in the home for their children. That's just good parenting. Which brings me to my fourth point: some ex-pats are just plain jerks who have no interest in the local culture and are only ticking a box to get ahead in their particular rat race, but they are few and far between in my experience. Which leads me to my final point: what the hell to I know? This is just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

PS: Global Soul is a fantastic book. But so are all Pico Iyer’s books.

quote:

Originally posted by Aliantraveler:
Expats pay social/tax/welfare costs here and can’t pick and choose where to pay – and that’s the law everywhere, my friend. But we will not get any return on the social security system into which we pay, as me must depart before we qualify for social welfare

Not true. (I'm hearing that you mean everywhere in the world.) This is something that is highly dependent on home country-host country agreements. Some people get fucked, some people can cash out, some people take benefits, some people have a choice. And there are strange, fuzzy things in between, like "totalization". Depends on the countries involved.

You mean my sweeping statement isn't true??? Sorry Stoo - you're right there. I just meant that the laws, and not individual coice, determine who gets your payments - unless the law allows you to choose. And you wonder why tax lawyers get rich?


Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread....

quote:

Originally posted by Elis:
Oh, and then I have this image in my mind that's stuck with me ever since I met a few expats in Senegal way back: Jetsons. Local life takes place outside, come inside the home and everything is from their homecountry except the maid. Completely detached from the surrounding territory and its people.

Elis, good to see you about. Been a while.

I see the extremes of your definitions, as I think many here do. But many of us, especially fellow boots who frequent this forum, just don't fit them. "Shades of grey", as they say.

Aliantraveler: Wow, big post. Sorry the first thing I picked out, earlier, was a technicality. But I'm stubborn that way ...forgive me.

On your internal status debate, if you somehow magically was on the path to permanent residency/citizen ship, would you change your own description from expat to immigrant?

quote:

First, as mentioned above, we’re not all living off some MNC trust fund.

Agreed. In fact, I think they are the minority. The flashy, idealized minority, but most definately not the norm. They sorta fuck up the term for the rest of us. When back in America, wearing the 'expat' label, I get all the warm fuzzy love from people who think I'm privy to the MNC love. (I've personally only had a single, modest year of it, and that was as an expat from Switzerland to the UK for a year! Crazy world...)

quote:

Your mileage may vary.

Shades of grey, my dear boot. But thanks for sharing.

Hm, stoo - if you want me to, I can make a few calls and you'll remain an expat.

On the topic: I'm not ready to be an immigrant yet. However, to complicate the matter, am I still an emigrant? As you have defined (and I agree), it's all about the intent. Hence, I'm not an immigrant to Oz, because I don't want to stay here. However, I am an emigrant from Switzerland, because I don't want to live there anymore. Man, that's fucked up....an emigrant without intent of immigration.



I slay me.

As for social security. That's quite interesting. Stoo, could you take your AHV back to the States? Smuggling money out of Switzerland. Unheard of.

As for Oz - I have a special agreement here with my employer and we contribute the minimum amounts to my super - adding the rest to the salary (tax reduced). The reason being, once I leave Oz, I'll lose 40% of it. (Basically, the fine print reads: GET BENT.)

quote:

Originally posted by elAdi:
As for social security. That's quite interesting. Stoo, could you take your AHV back to the States?

The US and CH have an agreement that means it would be paid out as a pension with limited survivorship rights, by either the US or CH. The details are really complicated and it all depends on what I do and where I live up until retirement. Basically, it is fair. Pillars 2 and 3 can optionally be paid out if I left CH. This all changes if I pickup a passport.

I think it depends on how well you adapt. Expats are those who live in their bubble and don't integrate into their host country.

“On your internal status debate, if you somehow magically was on the path to permanent residency/citizen ship, would you change your own description from expat to immigrant?”

Since you asked….

You mentioned gray areas before so let me answer: “that depends”. If I procured citizenship/ PR as a matter of professional or personal convenience but intended to return to the US one day, I would still consider myself an ex-pat. “Temporary” can be quite a long time. However, if my wife and I decided a change of status is necessary because we want to put down roots and trips to the US are for visits – then I’d be an immigrant.

In the end, I think an ex-pat is a visitor. A very long term visitor perhaps, and one who can develop great affection for their host country, but nonetheless an ex-pat will be moving on one day. To me an immigrant is one who says “I am staying. I want to be one of you.” And that’s an immigrant.

By the way, great thread topic. I normal look at the ex-pat/ permanent resident / immigrant question only from the day to day living perspective: what’s my visa say, how long can I stay, and to whom do I pay taxes? (and super/401k, el Adi!) But this thread has given me something deeper to think about – so thanks!