Agree with Chris H. It sounds like an unusual luxury tourist item, as opposed to the typical tourist item for your budget to mid-range traveler.

i agree with ch and cib. it would be the kind of thing you could get a group of people of all ages to go along with in every city you went to on a ten city tour. generic stuff.

I think we need to be more specific in some of the categories if we need to compare prices.
On beverage: should it be 2L of no name soda or 2L of coca cola, I think its better with coca cola since it is available everywhere and the same product. With beers: should it be ½L of tab or a bootle og beer?
I think we need to inklude a meal at McDonald, that is a good indicator of prices, and a lot of travelers like a fastfood meal once in a while

quote:

Originally posted by klinck:
I think we need to be more specific in some of the categories if we need to compare prices.
On beverage: should it be 2L of no name soda or 2L of coca cola, I think its better with coca cola since it is available everywhere and the same product. With beers: should it be ½L of tab or a bootle og beer?
I think we need to inklude a meal at McDonald, that is a good indicator of prices, and a lot of travelers like a fastfood meal once in a while

Food: I've got mixed feelings on this. Mainly, I think McD's is evil and am loath to include it in the basket as a matter of principal. Have not been to one in years. And while nearly universal...they are not universal. But they might be for our list of cities. Hmmm...

Coke: yes, we can settle up on Coke, me thinks.

Beer: Either the most popular local brew...or maybe better yet Heinekin/Tiger as they are nearly universal. "one small serving"? could be .33L or .5L depending. Hmm...

What do you all think?

- 7 beers (one per day -- include the tip if it's not typically included in the price)

I wouldn't include the tip at all unless it is mandatory, as we don't want the expensiveness of the city to depend on how much the person researching tips. Especially not for beer, assuming you're having those in a pub where it's not customary to tip.

- one t-shirt (standard, tourist grade)
- cost of public transit for 1 week (no taxis)
- 3 tourist/entertainment activity ticket prices (ie. museum or walking tours)

Maybe we should choose the top 3 tourist attractions for those? I would also rather make it 5.

- 1 movie at a cinema
- 1 entrance to a nightclub/discoteque (low-to-middle end)
- 1 play (low-to-middle end)

I feel very uncultured all of a sudden. I've never gone to see a play or movie while travelling.

- 1 week in a hostel dorm, city center
- 1 load of wash at a laundromat or service (whatever is cheaper)

I've also never used this, unless it was free or very cheap at the hostel. Don't most backpackers wash their clothes by hand?

- 1 return trip to the airport by the cheapest means possible (train, bus, taxi, donkey, etc.)
- 5 cheap postcards (not museum quality) + stamps to another continent
- 7 hours at an internet cafe (1 hour per day)

Seems a bit much to me.

- 7 cheap takeaway breakfasts (i.e. a muffin and a piece of fruit)
- 7 cheap takeaway or sitdown meals (one that will fill you up -- a slice of cheese pizza wouldn't do it -- a calzone and a small salad would)
- 7 sit down meals at an inexpensive restaurant (include the tip)
- 7 coffees/teas (or whatever the everyday cheap beverage is in that city you can buy from a street vendor)
- 14L of water/soda/juice (2L per day)

What about self-catering? Shouldn't we include the price of bread, yoghurt, fruit, crisps etc. and maybe things like pasta and eggs if cooking facilities are available at the hostel? I can't imagine ever eating/taking away 3 meals a day from a restaurant, 1's more like it. Or am I really so atypical?


I would add: - one cheapish (possibly second hand if that's easy to find) English-language novel or at least a magazine or newpaper
- one bottle of vodka or whatever the preferred local hard liquor is
- 1 pack of cigarettes (sure, not everybody smokes, but this is something that can vary a lot in price)

Should we also figure in wether most central hostels offer things like free breakfast, internet access, laundry, tea?

quote:

Beer: Either the most popular local brew...or maybe better yet Heinekin/Tiger as they are nearly universal. "one small serving"? could be .33L or .5L depending. Hmm...

I would say the most popular local lager, as that's usually cheaper and available on tap. Except for countries that don't produce their own beer or maybe where foreign beer is more popular. If I'm researching Antwerp, I'd have to look very hard to find a pub where they sell Heineken, even harder for Tiger though I'd prefer to drink the latter. Plus, I'd really be too embarrased to ask for Heineken.

I think we should say .5L, if beers are sold in .33L glasses count the price for 1 and a half.

- 7 beers (one per day -- include the tip if it's not typically included in the price)

I wouldn't include the tip at all unless it is mandatory...

Stoo: agreed...no tip

- 3 tourist/entertainment activity ticket prices (ie. museum or walking tours)

Maybe we should choose the top 3 tourist attractions for those? I would also rather make it 5.


Stoo: well, we are saying 7 days...i would be ok with an increase.

- 1 movie at a cinema
- 1 entrance to a nightclub/discoteque (low-to-middle end)
- 1 play (low-to-middle end)

I feel very uncultured all of a sudden. I've never gone to see a play or movie while travelling.

Stoo: hehe. i hate plays. have gone to a movie while traveling.

- 1 week in a hostel dorm, city center
- 1 load of wash at a laundromat or service (whatever is cheaper)

I've also never used this, unless it was free or very cheap at the hostel. Don't most backpackers wash their clothes by hand?

Stoo: and i've only washed by hand when there was no other choice. i think it is fair to keep in.

- 1 return trip to the airport by the cheapest means possible (train, bus, taxi, donkey, etc.)
- 5 cheap postcards (not museum quality) + stamps to another continent
- 7 hours at an internet cafe (1 hour per day)

Seems a bit much to me.

Stoo: OK...depends i guess. pick a number and see what people say.

- 7 cheap takeaway breakfasts (i.e. a muffin and a piece of fruit)
- 7 cheap takeaway or sitdown meals (one that will fill you up -- a slice of cheese pizza wouldn't do it -- a calzone and a small salad would)
- 7 sit down meals at an inexpensive restaurant (include the tip)
- 7 coffees/teas (or whatever the everyday cheap beverage is in that city you can buy from a street vendor)
- 14L of water/soda/juice (2L per day)

What about self-catering? Shouldn't we include the price of bread, yoghurt, fruit, crisps etc. and maybe things like pasta and eggs if cooking facilities are available at the hostel? I can't imagine ever eating/taking away 3 meals a day from a restaurant, 1's more like it. Or am I really so atypical?

Stoo: i was reading the breaky that way. how often does one sit down for a muffin and banana? So, we have one self cater, one cheap quicky meal, and one sit down. breakfast, lunch an dinner. it seems a fair comprimise...some people self cater all the way and some only eat out. the water and coke is selfcatering.

I would add: - one cheapish (possibly second hand if that's easy to find) English-language novel or at least a magazine or newpaper
- one bottle of vodka or whatever the preferred local hard liquor is
- 1 pack of cigarettes (sure, not everybody smokes, but this is something that can vary a lot in price)


Stoo: hmmm...interesting. i like the book idea. maybe even define the book. i'll agree to the cigarettes only if we include the vodka

Should we also figure in wether most central hostels offer things like free breakfast, internet access, laundry, tea?

Stoo: i'd say no...it is not even close to universal...even within a given town.

Just a shout to say: I don't think it's too very important to include every typical good purchased when visiting a city for a week. It's more important that we have a set basket of goods we can cross reference.

quote:

Originally posted by Stoo:
- 7 beers (one per day -- include the tip if it's not typically included in the price)

I wouldn't include the tip at all unless it is mandatory...

Stoo: agreed...no tip

I strongly disagree. Many (most?) countries reflect the tip in the price of the alcohol. The U.S. does not -- it's understood you're supposed to tip on drinks and food when you go out. It would make the U.S. seem cheaper than it is to not include that 15% tip on meals and drink tips. At most, it's going to add a small fluctuation of a couple dollars to our baskets if we disagree on what to tip on just 7 beers. When people don't tip in a place like NYC, it's not exactly their prerogative -- I mean, of course you can choose to not tip or tip a tiny amount, but I've seen waitresses come after people and yell at them for not tipping properly. Assume it is a cost you are supposed to budget for if gratuity is not included.

The way you are supposed to tip on drinks here is $1 per drink. If you drink 3 in a row you don't tip on the 3rd drink. Or, if you order in a big group and have one large bill, it's 15%. For 7 beers, just pick what is an average acceptable tip (in the US, say $5 for 7 beers -- though I would personally tip $7 for 7). For the meals, just stick to 15%. Some people tip less, some people tip more, 15% is the average.


This raises another question: taxes and VAT. Do we add that onto goods? VAT is quite high in some countries (adds another 20-30% onto your hotel/hostel, plus other things), and realistically, it's more money you are going to have to budget for. Then again sometimes you get some of it back. What do you all think?

quote:

- 3 tourist/entertainment activity ticket prices (ie. museum or walking tours)

Maybe we should choose the top 3 tourist attractions for those? I would also rather make it 5.


Stoo: well, we are saying 7 days...i would be ok with an increase.

I don't mind increasing it to 5 items. But I think 3 is ok too. I'll go with the flow.

I think finding an average for most tourists events and multiplying that by 3 (or 5) is better than trying to pick the top ones. How does one decide which are the top? It could skew it too easily. Better to select several typical events, their typical prices, and find the average. And that means tossing out items that skew the average, like the previously mentioned $120 attraction in Austrailia.

quote:

- 1 return trip to the airport by the cheapest means possible (train, bus, taxi, donkey, etc.)
- 5 cheap postcards (not museum quality) + stamps to another continent
- 7 hours at an internet cafe (1 hour per day)

Seems a bit much to me.

Stoo: OK...depends i guess. pick a number and see what people say.

Do you mean the internet hours? Do you want to make it 4 hours? That's not unreasonable for a week. I don't think we REALLY need the postcards, but the cost is going to be very small anyway.

quote:

- 7 cheap takeaway breakfasts (i.e. a muffin and a piece of fruit)
- 7 cheap takeaway or sitdown meals (one that will fill you up -- a slice of cheese pizza wouldn't do it -- a calzone and a small salad would)
- 7 sit down meals at an inexpensive restaurant (include the tip)
- 7 coffees/teas (or whatever the everyday cheap beverage is in that city you can buy from a street vendor)
- 14L of water/soda/juice (2L per day)

What about self-catering? Shouldn't we include the price of bread, yoghurt, fruit, crisps etc. and maybe things like pasta and eggs if cooking facilities are available at the hostel? I can't imagine ever eating/taking away 3 meals a day from a restaurant, 1's more like it. Or am I really so atypical?

Stoo: i was reading the breaky that way. how often does one sit down for a muffin and banana? So, we have one self cater, one cheap quicky meal, and one sit down. breakfast, lunch an dinner. it seems a fair comprimise...some people self cater all the way and some only eat out. the water and coke is selfcatering.

I think we should scratch any idea of real cooking at a hostel, even if people do that -- it adds too many variables to the price, too many ingredients to figure out. How do we determine a consistent meal?

A takeaway breakfast (i.e. an egg sandwich, or some fruit and a yogurt, etc) all have the same price range, which is a lower price than takeaway lunch.

I think it will be more consistent price-wise to say, per day for 7 days:

- takeaway breakfast
- takeaway lunch
- sit down dinner at inexpensive restaurant

quote:

I would add: - one cheapish (possibly second hand if that's easy to find) English-language novel or at least a magazine or newpaper
- one bottle of vodka or whatever the preferred local hard liquor is
- 1 pack of cigarettes (sure, not everybody smokes, but this is something that can vary a lot in price)


Stoo: hmmm...interesting. i like the book idea. maybe even define the book. i'll agree to the cigarettes only if we include the vodka

I'd scratch all the above, just because prices are really going to vary (esp on a second-hand book, and it's hard to pick a typical hard liquor then find the typical price for it at a liquor store), and it seems like a lot of little items people may or may not purchase when traveling that I don't think we need to include to get an index -- likewise candy bars, soap, phone cards, etc.

My 2 cents.

Ok, let's not get too caught up in minutae. VAT is something you can't avoid so we have to include it. In the US and Canada, a tip is near enough to mandatory that you have to pay it so we have to include it. Extra stuff like a bottle of spirits, cigarettes, etc, are totally extraneous and will widely vary in price so I agree that they should be excluded. Books? Well, there are ways to get those for free and places where you can't really get English language books, so I also agree that they need to be left out. Let's keep this to a reasonably simple set of purchases because this could very suddenly become bigger than Ben Hur.

I reckon we cover the basics:
Meals - 7 takeaway breakfasts, 7 takeaway lunches, 7 sit down suppers - easy to find, inexpensive places only (near hostel)

Drinks - 7 L Coca Cola, 7 L water, 7 beers, 7 plain coffees (no fancy pants coffee drinks)

Transport - transit to/from the airport by cheapest means to the hostel, 7 days worth of transit pass using city transit

Accomodation - 7 days at a hostel in a dorm (4-6 people)

Amenities - 1 load of washing, including soap whether by service or at a laundromat

Touristy stuff - 1 t-shirt (no postcards because postage will range widely depending on to where you are sending)

Entertainment- 3 tourist admission tickets for a museum, gallery or walking tour (or similar price range), one movie admission (night), 1 nightclub covercharge, 7 hours at an internet cafe

I reckon anything that will have a wide range of possible prices for the same event, we exclude. So, that means plays are out and postage is out.

Stoo - And, on that note, did you want to come up with a summary of items you want classified? And, would you like to pm me your email address because I am more than happy to fill out my part in an excel spreadsheet and email it to you.

Sky Annie is The voice of reason and moderation. Your basket looks good to me.

I was a complete slacker Sunday and did not do a spreadsheet. It will be easier for me to create a spreadsheet, send it out, and make a composite from the index. This eveing I hope...

I agree with Sky Annie's basket otherwise it will get too bogged down in detail and be too much to read. I think we have a good coverage now and i have my list ready for when i go to Paris - im excited i get to pretend that im a very important travel writer doing research - yes I am that sad that i get excited by the littlest things!!!!

Can you PM my spreadsheet for me whenever I dont go to the 8th September so a while yet

Sorry rambling now I'd best get back to work...!!!
Michelle

Hi kids,

I'm down with Skyannie's basket.

And I'm sorry to throw in yet another wrinkly, but it just occurred:


Can we asterisk the "1 week of public transport" with, * "If this is completely impractical for being able to get around your city's downtown/center, you can substitute in the cost of 1 week of car rental + gas."

I'm mainly thinking of U.S. cities here (except Chicago, Boston, NYC, or SanFran). For most U.S. cities there is no feasible public transport, and you would have to arrange for a car to get around -- L.A. or Dallas, for instance.

Is that ok with everyone?

Let's not include car rental because that will open a HUGE Pandora's box - petrol prices, distances driven, car options and parking. There are way too many variables for this one.

I agree with Sky Annie on the car thing, as it only really applies in the U.S. and in ridiculous cities like Doha where there's no/little public transportation.

I think a car rental is out of the question. Public transport in LA is painful, but doable if required...like life or death

Adding a car rental is just going to make the basket too complex wrinkled.

Sounds like we are pretty much settled unless cib wants to fight to the death on this point.