A place for geezers, grey hairs, and oldies to discuss independent travel. Reminisce about travel in the days before Lonely Planet and discuss issues applicable to the mature traveller.

The youth of today.

matengu

Knows What a Schengen Visa Is
 
Posts: 334
Joined: November 25th, 2003

Share on Orkut

This thread doesn't have any tags.

You can still check out the tag index though.

What are tags?
  • Added on: July 5th, 2006
Is it just me that seems to be turning into my father or do others think there has been a change. The youth of britain have no manners do not show any respect and are extremely ignorant.How are the kids in your neighbourhood is it just Britain or is there little hope on the horizon.
itu matengu

Grannygold

User avatar
Holds PhD in Packing
 
Posts: 201
Joined: April 9th, 2006

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 6th, 2006
Hi Matengu. I have enjoyed your posts--I lived in southern Africa six years, visited Botswana with great joy, and envy you the ability to go back and forth. But I fear you may be turning into your father. I teach college students and have taught them in a variety of countries and cultures. While African kids tend to behave more politely (it's their culture), they don't necessarily FEEL more generous than other kids, and politeness can be a superficial cover for distrust and dislike. I don't think kids are changing, really. I remember that in the 60s, when I was a wild hippie chick, my elders insisted that kids of today (then) had no respect, were rude, etc. We, on the other hand, felt that elders were stuffy, materialistic, greedy, overly concerned with superficial etiquette, and not in touch with (oh god, yes, we said this) their inner child. In the Romantic period, elders felt that people like Coleridge and Byron were rude and insulting. When Mahler wrote his symphonies, the German press found them shocking, a sign that the youth of their day was going to hell, fast! In fact, I think Aristotle and Pliny made some of the same complaints. So it is the nature of people who are getting older to view the young as rude, and it is the nature of the young to want to shock, best, or topple their elders. I do think middle class kids today read less than middle class folks a generation ago, because they have more distractions (cell phones, video games, surfing the net, etc.), but in my opinion they (and we), and poor kids and rich kids, are still motivated by the same things: a quest for joy, a fear of suffering, a need to connect meaningfully with other beings, a desire to understand what we're here for, and (believe it or not) a desire to leave the world better than it was when they/we came. I don't think that has changed. Of course, I could be wearing rose-colored lenses. I've been accused of that in the past.
--------------------------------
http://blogs.bootsnall.com/Grannygold/

Flackattack

User avatar
Holds PhD in Packing
 
Posts: 244
Joined: December 16th, 2005
Location: South America somewhere

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 6th, 2006
quote:
Is it just me that seems to be turning into my father

No, it is all of us turning into our fathers (and mothers for you still-going bna ladies). But remember that your father turned into your grandfather back in the day when you were coming of age. Sex, drugs and rock and roll-hooray! And your grandfather turned into your great-grandfather back in his day. Wine, women and song-hooray!
Take solice in the fact that the ignorant, illmannered and disrespectful kids of today will face an even more rowdy generation in 10-15 years when they have kids.
Flackattack Blog | Photos
"Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design." Bob Weir

matengu

Knows What a Schengen Visa Is
 
Posts: 334
Joined: November 25th, 2003

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 6th, 2006
A nice positive reply grannygolden and I too appreciate your posts. I suppose it is tough being a kid these days with the threat of terrorism and wars going on. I am not really anti kids I am a school teacher after all. But on the bus home from work yesterday some kids from another school still wearing their uniform started insulting a married couple on the bus. In Maun Botswana the young people are starting to hang out in gangs and loosing years of tradition of being respectful to elders.
Even a few years back when I was a teenager we used to work part time and earn money for any luxuries. These days I think a lot of kids think ipods and the like are a right rather than a luxury. I don't actually blame the kids themselves. Poor parenting is also to blame people confusing buying gifts for love and attention. Eating a meal whilst watching TV rather than as a family round the table.I think simple mistakes in parenting are causing bigger problems in the behaviour of the youth. Of course there are differences around the world but I am sure the majority of people enjoy some nice manners and a bit of respect from yhe youth rather than a feeling of intimidation.
itu matengu

matengu

Knows What a Schengen Visa Is
 
Posts: 334
Joined: November 25th, 2003

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 6th, 2006
Flackattack you just got your post in before mine I suppose as I am a father now that in a way I have already turned into my own father and am more concerned about the future because of that. I don't really take any comfort from the youth taking more flack from their kids I just kind of wish that things were steadily improving rather than going to the dogs
itu matengu

gonorth

User avatar
Extra Pages in Passport
 
Posts: 3686
Joined: April 23rd, 2004

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 6th, 2006
It is always often the case that bad things stand out in life more so than the average or even the good, and as both GG and FA indicate matengu, there are similarities to the past and how we develop as we move forward.

I think that one of the grater catalysts to human behaviour in this modern age is the speed of communication and so what is happening about the world is learnt very quickly and even that which would like to be covered up by some is often eventually revealed.
We might say that some youth have no respect and do not intend to be accountable for their actions and that can be so true in many ways, but when the youth of a decade ago or longer and today and in the next decades can see the way in which world leaders and the world seems to be heading, I can well understand that there will be some people (and not just youth) who say what the hell, why should I care.

They are not my values and personally I'll will continue to bang my head against a brick wall if I believe that wall is defective, and set whatever example I can, and sometimes even my brick walls need a bit of banging.

For all the people about that are doing bad, we should also remember that there are no doubt many more with higher values.
---...--- ---...--- ---...--- ---...---
Joes portly antipodean pal
He just wants my port and cherry ripes

salmo99

World Citizen
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: February 18th, 2002

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 7th, 2006
Great thread with illuminating posts from quality folks...

I do think that the loss of family has something to do with present day attitudes among the young-in all countries. I, too, grew up in the 60's and 70's and would never have believed what I am about to say: in America, the decline of respect and family ties was really accelerated by the combined costs of the Great Society programs of the 60's and the Vietnam War, which forced most women--who had not already made the choice--to go into the workplace. Say what you will--and I have and did--but having parent around when you get home from school, and one who has the time to engage with you as a child really does make a difference.

The march of the western world into third world cultures is fascinating--and depressing--to me. Example: I spent some time with a self taught naturalist on the island of Atui in the Cooks. Great guy, knew everything about plants, birds and insects, totally at home in his island world. Something he said has stuck with me; "today, when my Grandchildren come to visit and I give them a coconut to drink, they want Coke instead. This kills my heart." Mine too.

Grannygold

User avatar
Holds PhD in Packing
 
Posts: 201
Joined: April 9th, 2006

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 7th, 2006
Yes, Salmo. It IS sad to see the decline of individual cultures and the smothering of the wild, wondrous different-ness of the planet with Coke, action figures, Hollywood standards of beauty, Levis, etc. I think you're onto something important, but I invite you to take a longer, wider view of cultural history.

quote:
the decline of respect and family ties was really accelerated by the combined costs of the Great Society programs of the 60's and the Vietnam War, which forced most women--who had not already made the choice--to go into the workplace


Women have ALWAYS been in the workplace, though seldom by choice. The Greeks and Romans had female slaves, concubines, & domestic servants, and except for the very brief period of time between the end of WWII and the 70s, the majority of women in western society were poor and worked outside their homes: as washerwomen, milkmaids, field hands, cleaning women, prostitutes, chambermaids, grain threshers, dressmakers, nannies, shop assistants, rag pickers, factory workers, etc. Only a small number of very privileged women could stay home and be served by the other, much larger class of women who made up the workforce. This is why I doubt very much that the youth of today are different from their parents and grandparents. The young just do what the young have always done: in an effort to individuate, to break free of their parents and to establish themselves as separate and free, they shock, insult, mouth off, commit acts of rampant rudeness, get drunk, puke, get pregnant, take drugs, and generally go wild. Bless their hearts--it's all very tiring, really. Thank god the young have their youth to get them through it. The best of them sling on backpacks and slip on boots to go explore the world and have adventures. I love them for doing that, although I know it is harder now financially than it was when we were their age, and we didn't have AIDS to worry about, so in many ways we had it so much easier.

I'd also like to say one more thing on behalf of those of us whose mothers did stay home and for whom that was not a bowl of rose petals. Not all stay-at-home moms were waiting with pretty frocks on and plates of cookies for their kids at the end of the school day. The middle-class stay-at-home-moms of yesterday were very often bipolar, psychotic, alcoholic, addicted to belladonna or other drugs, and abusive or neglectful of their children. It was their maids and nannies (whose kids wore housekeys around their necks) who nurtured the kids of the 50s & 60s.

So if we old geezers MUST insist there's something wrong with the world and "youth of today," and if we MUST blame something for that, I say let's blame unrestricted global capitalism, the oiligarchy, corporate greed and environmental degradation, and the DECLINE of compassionate values given lip service by the "Great Society." Now that is quite enough of my schoolmarm persona on her soapbox. Whew! The truth is I'm five days from my long-awaited trip to Portugal and I'm stir-crazy or I wouldn't be carrying on like this. You know how crazy you get just before you lift off? I'm that now.
--------------------------------
http://blogs.bootsnall.com/Grannygold/

gonorth

User avatar
Extra Pages in Passport
 
Posts: 3686
Joined: April 23rd, 2004

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 8th, 2006
Oh Granny, you do love a stir when you get crazy and I think to some extent in looking at the stay at home mums you are generalising about extremes.

Sure there were no doubt plenty that had to work, my mum (supporting four of us alone)included, and I got through with reasonable enough values, and then my wife born in 60s had a mum and even dad home for lunch and work was only ten minutes away, and so her and five siblings may not have been in the most materially wealthy of families but it was such a rich environment for her to grow up in too.

When I see the next generation and their focus on the best gigantic houses and kids in government subsidised child care while both are working I can see what Salmo is getting at re the home alone bit, and yes the capitalistic values come into to it as well.
That ease of communication I mentioned also plays a role in the increasing expectations of younger people because of what they can see others have via television and the internet, and to give you an example that is probably world wide - how many sjate-board parks have been built, paid for not by the users mind you, only for kids to rather annoy people on the sidewalks and malls still - I and my mates, and you too were able to occupy ourselves without need for skate-board parks, computers, pinball parlours and what ever else they easily tire of.

I certainly would never have contemplated pissing on a war memorial, and what is happening to two of the offenders - too young to be charged! - so what do those two learn from that? - what next shall we try!
And there are so many like things that do ocur all the time, and hopefully the good will always outnumber the bad.
---...--- ---...--- ---...--- ---...---
Joes portly antipodean pal
He just wants my port and cherry ripes

Grannygold

User avatar
Holds PhD in Packing
 
Posts: 201
Joined: April 9th, 2006

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 8th, 2006
You got my number, gonorth! And yet...are dysfunctional families the norm or the exception? I only know two functional families in the whole world (both in England), so to me, based on the experiences of me & my weirdo, lefty, queer, bohemian, artsy-fartsy, academic friends (are we the exceptions?), stay-at-home-moms, much though we may NOW celebrate and forgive them (see Jackie Leyden's DAUGHTER OF THE QUEEN OF SHEBA) were the nightmares of our youth.
--------------------------------
http://blogs.bootsnall.com/Grannygold/

matengu

Knows What a Schengen Visa Is
 
Posts: 334
Joined: November 25th, 2003

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 9th, 2006
I'm probably going to offend a lot of you now but I consider the biggest factor in any possible decline is the abolition of corporal punishment in schools and society. The cane was abolished in British schools when I was 13 and the next day all the kids went wild. My father took a belt to me on a couple of occasions, once for stealing and another time for being extremely rude to my step mother. I didn't do either again. Looking back he did me a favour and I don't resent this treatment one little bit. The lack of love and attention that has transpired in recent years I resent far more.
itu matengu

gonorth

User avatar
Extra Pages in Passport
 
Posts: 3686
Joined: April 23rd, 2004

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 10th, 2006
Granny,
We all form views based on our own experiences and who is really able to assess how representative our samples are of the greater community and then the only reason the inmates are on the inside is that there is more of us than them.

Matengu, I suppose if you look at the lack of accountability that seems to prevail in many aspects of life, yeah you could argue that the fear factor has lessened in the absence of capital punishment but I doubt that it alone is responsible for the issue you have raised.

If anything, capital punishment at school levels could if anything have re-inforced in some people that rule by force is the way to go.
Even in training an animal, it is an often held belief that the best training will be achieved by reward even in the form of being positive emotionally.

I think Salmo with
quote:
but having parent around when you get home from school, and one who has the time to engage with you as a child really does make a difference
is pretty close to the mark in as much a great deal of todays problems do stem from lack of good parenting whether or not they are in the workforce.
And further on the coconut Vs coke example, it is the capitalism and expectations that has younger people losing touch with the simpler things of like for enjoyment and in turn perhaps many become too easily bored and frustrated, thus turning towards anti-social behaviour.

The big stick approach was caveman stuff in a way and societies need to somehow strengthen the family values of respect for others that have diminished, and yet as the global oil supply diminishes in decades to come and there is increasing demand, perhaps there will be greater examples of using a big stick, even ironically, further increased consumption in using war machinery to fight more and more over less and less.
---...--- ---...--- ---...--- ---...---
Joes portly antipodean pal
He just wants my port and cherry ripes

Grannygold

User avatar
Holds PhD in Packing
 
Posts: 201
Joined: April 9th, 2006

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 10th, 2006
Wise and good, Gonorth. Your vision may be true:

quote:
as the global oil supply diminishes in decades to come and there is increasing demand, perhaps there will be greater examples of using a big stick, even ironically, further increased consumption in using war machinery to fight more and more over less and less


As a Buddhist, I believe violence begets violence; at the same time, Matengu, discipline administered with love, including that administered by your father, is not violent. Knowing the difference between discipline and violence is one of the keys to good parenting. Gonorth, you may be right about where we're headed, but it's not the only possible way. War is not inevitable, nor is it "human nature." Compassion, kindness, and the willingness to play well with others and share our toys is also "human nature." As "elders" earn respect by wise and skillful action, "youth" will pay the respect the elders deserve, whether those elders are parents (or good parents) or not. In my limited view, all each of us can do is make peace where we are, solve the problems that are ours to solve, clean up our own houses, respect others who earn our respect, and witness the unfolding. And me, I'm going to Portugal the day after tomorrow, oh yes!
--------------------------------
http://blogs.bootsnall.com/Grannygold/

Callilucy

User avatar
Waitin' For The Lentil Loaf
 
Posts: 2266
Joined: April 22nd, 2005

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 10th, 2006
Disclaimer: I am most likely to young to have anything valuable to say in the "old people's" Wink forum but I have one addition to salmo's comments.

For half of my life my mom was a stay at home mother and for the second half she was a working mom. I turned out alright. I've always put alot of thought into this sort of thing and have seen many different families interact and what I've felt is that its not necesarily whether there is a stay at home parent but whether both parents make the time to really interact with their kids. My best friend's dad was a very big part of my life and a fantastic role model and father to me. He worked all day long but when he was home he actually hung out with his kids and was an active part of their life. We weren't shuttled off in front of the tv or ignored in favor of his own friends/interests. He made time to be with us, see what we were doing, who we were picking on, etc. I'm thankful that when my parents couldn't make the time or merely chose not to that I had a stand in dad who would hug me when he came home from work and scold me for being a sarcastic little brat.
I don't want to be fearless, I want to be brave.

anniebanannie

User avatar
All that and a bag of Doritos
 
Posts: 3912
Joined: April 23rd, 2005

Share on Orkut

  • Added on: July 10th, 2006
Kids these days...when I was their age, I had to walk uphill to school, both ways!, in the snow...even though I am from the SF Bay Area.

Kidding aside, I think, while kids these days may be a little different, they are kids, just as we all were. Yes, times have changed, but so have all of we. We can look back at ourselves as, "I would have NEVER done that; kids in my day didn't do those things, etc." and I think it is easy to sit and say with our older eyes. In a few years, THESE kids will sit back and say the same thing about the newer generation. Kids don't always respect their elders; do you always? It is a way for them to feel out who they are and where they belong.

I am wondering what defines a functional family. I can think of no families that are truly functional, yet many of us work in a way that is best for us. Disfunction is a subjective state.

What I do see different today than when I was growing up (and I have a large family with quite the age range of kids) is that in today's sue-crazy society, no one knows how to take the blame. If a kid gets in trouble, the parents blame it on the teacher, the kid on another kid, etc. I can say when I was growing up, my parents/aunts/uncles had no problems making us own up to our mistakes. It is different, now, though, when you can sue McDonalds for making your kids fat, or a television network for showing inappropriate shows, or the Internet for allowing their underaged children on a sitem or your kid's coach for not playing them and hurting their self esteem. I have seen one too many parent decline to take responsibility that their lack of involvement may have played into it, and that begets kids not taking responsibility.


Next

Return to Still Going...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

PLEASE NOTE: Your original BootsnAll Boards Member login still works by logging in below on the Boards.
We have a new BootsnAll Account that you will start seeing around the BootsnAll Travel Network. This new login is not yet linked to your current Boards Account. In the meantime, you will need to sign up (for a BootsnAll Account) to use Account features like Indie ™ , Traveler Profiles etc.

Quick Links

Community Activity

Statistics for the last 7 days

New posts:
0
Newest Member:
Seni Tours


Indie - Multi Country Flight Finder
Round the World Travelers


Join BootsnAll on Facebook

1 (503) 528-1005

© 2018 BootsnAll Travel Network, LLC. All Rights Reserved.