Train trouble (and Antwerp or Brussels?)

Being the most addicted to travel between my future travel buddies and me (I look up flights on kayak.com for fun), I've been (self)designated the general trip planner for our upcoming trip to Europe. I'm having fun with it, but I've run across some snags I'm hoping some of you can help me out with.

First, a bit of info on the trip: This March, three friends and I are going to Europe together for 10 days. We're flying into Amsterdam, then going to Belgium, then Paris, and finally London, where we're flying back to the States. In each place we're spending two nights, except for London where we'll spend three.

Now, getting around is giving me issues. I've heard that the Eurail pass is great for flexibility and convenience (and yes, I have read the discussion about it here), but as the custom 3-country, 5-day pass is roughly $70-80 more expensive, I'm leaning against it. However, I still wonder: is it worth the flexibility and convenience of a Eurail pass when we're only planning on traveling by train 3 times in the designated area? Is it going to make our lives that much easier and stress-free? And if not, should we go ahead and buy the train tickets online now from some place like RailEurope.com or wait until we get to the station? Someone said in the Eurail discussion above that they found the RailEurope.com schedules to be not very reliable. Has anyone else found this to be true, and if so, where else can I look? Or should we just not worry at all and buy the tickets at the station?

And also, as I was looking up hostels in Brussels, I found them all to be on the expensive side, with so-so ratings, so I (arbitrarily) looked up Antwerp hostels instead. I found them to be both cheaper and better-liked by customers. None of us know much about things to do or see in Belgium, so we didn't think we'd be missing much by switching cities. Thus, we're thinking of going to Antwerp instead. Is there any compelling reason we shouldn't? Or is there another Belgium city we should check out instead? We're up for off the beaten path, so long as it doesn't cost much to get there or stay there.

Thanks, all!

Spending two days/city is silly. What about cutting Belgium entirely and making it 3, 3, and 3. I like Belgium, very much so in fact, but your plan seems overly-ambitious. If you are deciding here is the most concise take after a short visit. Antwerp is touristy and quaint. Brussels is a big harsh city. (Brussels is the Philly of Europe IMHO many not-creative tourists are disappointed in the offerings.)

As for Eurail it seems silly in my opinion. Due to where you are going you will be subject to waiting in line anyhow and paying 15 Euros "reservation fee" to get seat on each train.

If you book your train tickets on-line in advance you may be able to get something as cheap as this:
$50 Thalys Amsterdam to Brussels
$50 Thalys Brussels to Paris
$60 EuroStar Paris to London

Flying is often cheaper. Check flight prices (both main-line airlines and budget airlines) as they may save you even more time and money. Be aware of airports that are far from the city center though.

If you are really going for cheap you can take the bus for super cheap, if you book months in advance. It is much slower though.
Amsterdam to Brussels on Eurolines 20 Euro.
Brussels to Paris on Eurolines 10 Euro.
Paris to London on Eurobusexpress / Gullivers 10 Pounds.
So for $65 you could get further than your several hundred dollar eurail would take you.

quote:

Originally posted by Brambles24601:

$50 Thalys Amsterdam to Brussels
$50 Thalys Brussels to Paris
$60 EuroStar Paris to London

A bit more, actually. I just did Antwerp-Amsterdam a week ago for ~€40 on Thalys, which is approaching US$60. Slower, non-Thalys trains are notably cheaper. I think I spent as little as €20 for Den Haag to Antwerp, but am fuzzy on that, and it was maybe €6 from Amsterdam to Den Haag.

I agree very much with Brambles24601 on Eurolines. Great for the budget minded with high pain thresholds.

Flying has potential hidden costs--like the "oh, you want more than one hand bag? Your luggage is more than 15kg???" markups. Plus the trains to the airport.

starrynightskies: I like your thoughts on Antwerp over Brussels. It is a smaller, more manageable city. There are decent hostels in the old part of town within a ten minutes walk from Antwerp's main train station. And I just like Antwerp.

Traveling within Belgium is pretty quick and cheap. If you have 2 days, see both Antwerp and Brussels. I worked in Brussels and had a few coworkers that commuted from Antwerp, so it's definitely doable. You can check the train schedules here: http://www.b-rail.com/index.php
It only takes about an hour to go between Antwerp and Brussels. If accommodations in Brussels suck, just set up at a hostel in Antwerp, take a train down to Brussels, and then go back in the evening.

If you go to Brussels, check out the Grote Markt/Grande Place. My favorite bar there is Cafe Bizon...might not be your style, it's kind of a laid-back blues place, but they have live music on Mondays. [DEFINITELY go to a bar in Belgium at some point. The beer is cheap and amazing; Hoegaarden and Leffe are pretty well known, but try Duvel and Chimay) Or if you're just going to see the sights...um...there's this big atom monument, Het Atomium (with a park), and a really amazing park called Jubelpark (Parc de la cinquantenaire). It's similar to the Arc De Triomphe, but IMO a lot more beautiful and interesting. Plus, it's never packed with tourists, and it's a full park that you can relax in. You can also go to the top of the arch at Jubelpark (for free) and get a view of the city. If you like shopping, there's a major shopping center downtown, near the Grande Place. I think it's called City2. (Pretty expensive though, so..probably not great for a traveler) I never really found Brussels to be a "big harsh city"...it's an active place, but it's definitely not as busy as Paris, New York, or Rome.

I haven't been to Antwerp (and I regret it all the time), but people that live there apparently prefer it to Brussels. They say it has more character and charm, or something.

But yeah, there's no reason why you can't spend time in both cities. Alternatively, instead of going to Brussels, you might like some of the other smaller towns/cities. I hear Brugge is nice...

--

As for the Eurail...you definitely don't need it for your short trip. It doesn't work for Eurostar trains (the trains between France and London), and you can get pretty good rates with Thalys when you're in the Netherlands/France area.

I live in Antwerp so I'm totally biased, but I do think it's more interesting to visit than Brussels. In fact if you have two days in Belgium, I would suggest going to Antwerp and Gent or Brugge instead of Brussels.

From Amsterdam to Belgium, as Stoo said, it's far ccheaper to take a regular IC train rather than a Thalys, and the latter won't save you much time anyway. Buy your tickets at the train station.

For the Eurostar, buy tickets as much in advance as possible, as they will be considerably cheaper then. And it's worth checking the price for 1st class too. I bought tickets from Brussels to London a couple of days ago and it's 215 € for 1st class (roundtrip) whereas 2nd class would've cost more than 350€! (Though when I checked a day earlier, it was still only 180€) It sounds crazy I know, but the cheapest tickets in second class sell out a lot quicker than those in 1st class apparantly. You can buy tikets through the Eurostar website, or (preferebaly) through the national rail website of the country you're departing from (in your case, www.sncf.fr )

When I got Eurostar tickets (round trip, London-Brussels) it totaled about 110USD. I booked it in June for a July trip, as well.

Did they recently go crazy with prices or something? 250-350 sounds really high.

quote:

When I got Eurostar tickets (round trip, London-Brussels) it totaled about 110USD. I booked it in June for a July trip, as well.

Did they recently go crazy with prices or something? 250-350 sounds really high.

EuroStar pricing is simliar to how airlines price their seats. There are set numbers of seats at various prices, with the cheaper seats filling up faster, Friday evening and Monday morning going more quickly, etc. Just like seraphim says.

The EuroStar site is pretty clear about pricing and allows you select earlier or later trains for better prices.

This is very much in contrast to IC, EC and Thalys trains which you can buy twenty minutes beforehand for the same price as twenty days out.

quote:

Originally posted by Stoo:
This is very much in contrast to IC, EC and Thalys trains which you can buy twenty minutes beforehand for the same price as twenty days out.

Actually that ain't true for Thaly's. I've gotten specials since I booked in advance, although their pricing scheme is not as clear as Eurostar there are savings to be had from booking early. I've gotten a 10 Euro Aachen-Bruessels and a 25 Euro Paris-Cologne that way.

Strangely Eurostar tickets seem to be cheapest from the US site whenever I've booked them.

Also, if you are going to Antwerp. Due note that some IC/EC trains going from Holland to Antwerp have an issue with being overloaded (due to the exorbitant cost of the alternative Thaly's). My experience with this meant a train I was on in October could not manage to stop within the normal breaking distance since there were so many people(=weight) on board. That meant skipping the stop at Antwerp Central. (At least this was the excuse for skipping that stop we were given over the PA.) They suggested public transport from a suburban stop to the center instead. This was not done in English so ask for assistance if there seems to be some sort of pandemonium among the passenger when you are around Antwerp.

I would agree that Antwerp is a much better city to visit, especially on a short trip. It is one of the most accessible places I have ever been. I think that one could easily burn two days there as we were cut very short with just a day. Doing Brussels as a day trip from there is an interesting and very decent idea. There is a very intuitive tourist map in both Antwerp and Brussels geared towards youth/backpackers that is definitely worth getting as soon as you arrive, its wonderful and shows the cities' quirks as described by locals--you'll know if you find the right one.

Still I have trouble imagining what I would feel like if I had tried to do Paris in two days. If anything I could see just planning two days for London and three days for Paris.

quote:

Originally posted by Brambles24601:
Actually that ain't true for Thaly's. I've gotten specials since I booked in advance, although their pricing scheme is not as clear as Eurostar there are savings to be had from booking early. I've gotten a 10 Euro Aachen-Bruessels and a 25 Euro Paris-Cologne that way.

I did not know that. Did you do this from the train station or a special web site/company? But, they most certainly do not rip you off like Eurostar does last minute.

Note that Thalys is reserved seating, so no overflow problems like Brambles described with EC trains.
Eurostar price table for London-Belgium

The best thing about Brussels is the Atomium and the town square. Unless you're an EU bureacrat you can definitely skip it on a 10 day jaunt.

I love the atomium by the way, but I'm weird.

Thanks for your input, guys! Good, it's confirmed: no Eurail, and Antwerp it is. We were thinking of stopping by Brussels on the way to Paris, but that's for future planning stages. As for durations of stay, I know longer in each Paris would be better, but the friend we're visiting is in London, so the three nights go there. We were, however, probably going to take a later train so we at least have a third morning/lunch/early afternoon there. I think right now (and with just 10 days) we're just going for a taste of each place to determine where we want to go back and where we can skip next trip. This is certainly not our only shot! (I'll travel until I'm completely broke.....which is actually happening right now, between this trip and a Jamaica trip with my college in May....anyway...) And actually, I'm really looking forward to Belgium, more so than any of the other places. Between the major tourist cities of Amsterdam, Paris, and London, a less popular destination really appeals to me.

Ok, so I'll check out buses, and those I should buy the tickets for online? If we do decide to go with trains, they're usually cheaper pre-purchased? And how do I tell the difference between all these different types of trains?

quote:

Originally posted by Stoo:
I did not know that. Did you do this from the train station or a special web site/company? But, they most certainly do not rip you off like Eurostar does last minute.

Yeah for Thaly's its on their website. Sometimes the different countries's sites the prices also differ, so it doesn't hurt to check them beforehand.


If you are taking the bus the cheapest way is to buy in advance. They only way I know of doing that is buying from that countries specific Eurolines website. Not all of these are in English so that may complicate things.
For departures from NL see eurolines.nl
For departures from B see eurolines.be
For departures from F see eurolines.fr (But the bus service EuroBusExpress is often cheaper (10 GBP/$20). It can be booked through this site or this one.

The Paris>London buses are slow and run overnight. They go on a ferry and they normally make you get off the bus for that part.


As far trains go, it is cheaper to book the high speed ones online, otherwise you can buy them on board or at the station. To book online you will probably need to pick them up at a vending machine in the station since most US addresses aren't accepted.