after carefully reading lots of the wonderful tips on this board, doing some research and given my itinerary a lot of thought, here is my dream itinerary I'd like you guys to comment on.. I am very open to suggestions of places beyond the big cities.. note that I am only doing a few North Europe cities since money IS a consideration and I'd much rather stretch it in two weeks worth of exploring and fun than 4 or 5 days in one place.. which brings me to a question.. London.. to go or not to go?? honestly, I didn't love London the time I went there.. so I've wanted to go back and give it another try.. though I know it's very expensive.. particularly on early August (is this a smart choice??).. should I just skip it and start my trip out of Paris, Amsterdam or Frankfurt (I am flying over seas with miles and am pretty sure I could fly into one of those places - just need to decide quick before booking my flight)? I definitely want to do Amsterdam and Paris though..

SFO to London on 08/05 - arrive London 08/06 - 2pm
?London - 4 nights - fly or train to
Paris - 6 nights - a couple of day trips (Versailles.. ???).. from here trains or flights? whichever cheaper/more reasonable to..
Amsterdam - 4 nights - day trip to Brussels
Berlin - 5 nights - a couple of day trips (Hamburg.. ???)
Prague - 5 nights
Krakow - 3 nights - day trip to Auschwitz
Budapest - 3 nights
?Vienna - 4 nights - day trip to Bratislava
Venice - 2 nights
?Florence - 2 nights
Rome - 5 nights
5 Terre OR Amalfi Coast/ Sorrento/ Naples/ Capri - 5 or 6 nights? - fly? to
?Greek Islands - 6 nights - or some other sunny retreat/ vacation of vacation - fly to
Barcelona - 3 nights
Madrid - 4 nights
Sevilla - 2 nights
Lisbon - 4 nights
Lisbon to SFO on Tuesday 10/20 @ 11:30am

* I've left a few days open for transportation time and some flexibility...

what do you guys think? too long in some cities? too short in others? I feel like I'd like to explore more Italy, Spain and Portugal though.. day trip suggestions?? I tried to keep the weekends in the main cities for some of the social/gay scenes..

about myself, 38yo brazilian gay man living in San Francisco.. I am pretty much into sightseeing, museums, sites, cultural sites, but above all I like to 'feel' the city and the way people live.. sometimes I'd much rather spend an afternoon wondering around a busy neighborhood than spend hours in a museum.. I really like to have a feeling of the locals.. not a heavy party guy.. I am searching for some sort of a 'sophisticated' backpack trip.. don't think I can do the hostels though.. so I am aiming for some sort of bed and breakfasts, guesthouses, pensions (love them!!) and cheap hotels..

thanks a lot and I look forward to hearing your comments/ questions/ critiques/ suggestions.
bless you all!!

Speaking as a person who was in London for a while, the most exciting thing I could find about london was the British museum (3 full day visits), and a visit to the Globe theatre for some feminist interpretations of Shakespeare, in a building made to look like the original globe theatre.

Given the scope of your trip, put the time to something else and save the 90+ Euros it'll cost you to go from London to Paris by Eurostar, or the time and effort to fly or take a bus.

I am NOT a london fan either, though I must say, I still have to visit the London Eye and the Tower museum. I'm just not that much of an anglophile, I guess.

I've heard the exchange right now makes it good to go to England. Not sure if that's still the case, but I know it was a bit ago.

My other gut reaction to your itinerary is that you don't need 4 days in Lisbon. I would add more time in Sevilla, but that is because it is one of my favoritest places on the planet, so I am biased. What you could do is spend those two days (or three) in Sevilla, take the bus to the Algarve (bus is the best way to travel between Sevilla and Lisbon, and it goes through the Algarve on your way) and stay there for a night, explore the beach towns and relax. Then head up to Lisbon...which you will find looks eerily like San Francisco!

One caveat...it will be HOT in Sevilla at that time of year (but your from Brasil, so probably more used to it).

I am afraid that you are going to burn out on traipsing around the continent. You are covering a lot of ground in not too much time; if you take flights you'll save a little time...I would consider focusing on a few key areas and not going so all over the place. That's just my opinion...I like to move when I travel but this overwhelms me a little bit:-) And I am sure someone will correct me, but I think August is a big vacation time throughout Europe, which means you'll want to check places are open.

Love seeing another San Franciscan on the boards!

hello guys,
thanks for the thoughtful comments..
I've just booked my flight.. so now this is officially a go!!! I am so thrilled and freaking out at the same time.. this is going to be one of my biggest adventures ever - the boldest of my adventures so far was moving to SF nine years ago.. so the thought of 'backpacking' through Europe alone for such a long time frightens me some..

tortuga, I figured since I am going on such a long -hopefully great!!- adventure, I might as well suck it up and spend a few days in London.. I'll either love it and be glad I came back.. or don't care for it.. and won't ever go back again..

anniebanannie, thanks for your observation regarding my long ass itinerary.. it's all in planning still but I figured I should have some sort of guidance.. one of the things I am keeping in mind is that I start my trip right in August.. and I'll have to be very budget conscious.. so I am planning on booking accommodation and transportation in advance for London, Paris, Amsterdam and perhaps Berlin.. by then it will be September and I'll feel more comfortable to go with the flow.. and may or may not cover all that ground.. I want to keep my possibilities open as far as staying longer somewhere I love and leave earlier somewhere that I don't care much for.

I agree all the traveling will be overwhelming at some point so I am planning on take a little break somewhere in the middle of my trip for a week taking it easy on a beach town or something.. that's why I was thinking of Greece (someone suggested me Croatia instead!!)...

I'm gonna work on booking my hotels and transportation for the first leg of my trip.. any suggestions?

So it looks like you've got 2 and a half months, and an itinerary that hits up various highlight cities throughout the continent. Independently, I don't see anything wrong with your plans (though Rome seems a bit long...I'm not sure I could spend that much time there), but it does seem scattered, city-centric, and busy.

My big suggestion is to pick a focus. You are scattered right across the western half of the continent, with some jigs east as well. If Spain and Italy are your main interests, 2.5 months is not too much time spend between them. They're not my area of expertise (never been to Spain, and was last in Italy at age 10, 16 years ago), but others can probably help with some suggestions of off-the-beaten track type stops. In several countries, though, my best memories are the random places I've stopped on the way somewhere else...towns you've never heard of, many of which I don't know the names for either.

My second suggestion is don't book any hotels past your first stop. You have a long time, and you will probably quickly find that either you get sick of Paris after a couple of days, or you love it and aren't ready to move on. The big thing on any long trip is to be flexible so that not only are you prepared for the unexpected, but so that you don't shortchange yourself by spending a long time in cities you dislike, and barely seeing the ones that you love. Going by the seat of my pants, there've been days when I haven't gotten my first choice of accommodation, but I've never been left out in the cold.

On London - from the sounds of it, you've been, didn't like it, and are going back because you think you should. I love London, but I've loved London since the first time I went there, and I doubt I'm going to stop. If you don't, then you really need to have a reason for visiting, or you probably won't enjoy it.

Flying midtrip is something I try to avoid. Generally what I'd try to plan is a trip that requires one or less mid-trip flights (ideally a one-way overland trip with a flight back to your arrival city at the end). Flying lock you in to a time and date, and is a stressful, high hassle, not-much-of-a-holiday experience.

I'm not sure what your budget is like exactly, but you do seem somewhat concerned with it...as a result, I'd suggest trying to move east as well as south, particularly since you don't want to do dorm beds. (I don't blame you...I've rather outgrown dorms, but still use them in big cities that are just too expensive otherwise) Don't exclude hostels though, since many have private rooms cheaper than comparable pensions, and sometimes have just as much character. If you are flying into London, a great feature of Europe is that everywhere has cheap flights to London.

I am pretty much into sightseeing, museums, sites, cultural sites,

Plenty of that in London.

but above all I like to 'feel' the city and the way people live.. sometimes I'd much rather spend an afternoon wondering around a busy neighborhood than spend hours in a museum..

As a traveler, only there for a couple of days, and in the middle of summer, you are going to be really hard pressed to find that especially in central London.

Wow...you are a lucky guy!

I agree with your programme...just spend some more days in Italy, the south is great!

Portugal is also a really good choise, you spend less comparing with other countries and Lisbon, during the sammer, is probably one of the best citis to visit during the summer.
Nice city, great beaches just nearby.

I was visiting Lisbon not so long time ago. I found this Lisbon travel and events guide that was really useful during my stay. They also invited me in a free ticket for Elton John's show...

I have to agree with what other's have said - your route is very city-centric. There are really charming small towns in all of these countries that have just so much personality. For ex. I was just in Czech - spent three days in Prague and three more a few hours south in Cesky Krumlov and it was excellent.

I would say just book the first accommodation and then be willing to maybe go off-route if that's what happens. It would be a shame for you to miss some of the smaller jewels that you will hear about on the road because you were tied to the idea of a fixed itinerary. The rough outline you have is great as just that - a rough idea of what you might perhaps ideally like to do - I say show up at the first stop and then go as fast and slow as you feel like.

Once you get on the road you will really begin to value flexibility (at least many people - I do acknowledge that there are those who prefer having a whole trip entirely maped out!).

My main advice - don't rush and don't put too much stock in how many cities you are able to see, it is better to just have an awesome time and go with the flow.

Hope any of that helped. Have an amazing trip!

~Shannon

Follow my RTW travel blog:http://www.alittleadrift.com

hello everybody,
a quick update on my plans..

Shannon080, thanks for your thoughtful reply.. I'll try to address to it in this posting..

since the beginning I've been torn in between a planned trip and a 'go with the flow' one.. I am starting my trip early August and my three first stops are probably the most expensive towns I'll be visiting this time around.. so since I am trying to be mindful of my budget, I thought I'd follow some suggestions and make some reservations ahead of time... sort of 'do what I've gotta do' in those cities and follow my heart from there..

I arrive in London on Aug 6. I've got a not-so-cheap-hostel - L$20/night - close to Victoria Station for 5 nights.. then, train to Paris on Aug 11.. I've just booked a cheap? - E$30/night - hotel in Les Halles, apparently, right in the middle of prostitutes and sex shops...

I am planning on being in Paris for 6 nights.. then got to Amsterdam.. if it all works out that way, it seems like I'd be in Amsterdam on Monday, Aug 17.. so here are a few questions I'd like some input..

* is 6 full days enough for Paris? I could do a day trip to Versailles and Strasbourg or Dijon.. any other better suggestions?

* should I make reservations for Amsterdam (train from Paris and accommodations) now? I've been told that's a tough town to get a last minute cheap room in.. is 4 nights enough for Amsterdam? too much? perhaps a day trip to Den Haag or Groningen? any other thoughts?

* it looks like I'll arrive in Amsterdam on a Monday.. and I think I'd rather spend a weekend there.. any suggestions of a great place to visit for a few days between Paris and Amsterdam?? Bruges.. Brussels.. Antwerp.. Rotterdam perhaps?? I hear Brussels is quite boring though..

the updated itinerary bellow is a rough plan for the places I'd like to go to during this trip - * those are the cities I DO wanna go to!.. I am not on a race though, so I'll try not to be disappointed if I can't get to see all that during the 2 1/2-3 months I'm planning on traveling.. I know it all looks a bit city-centric right now but I'm trying to learn about lovely-great-not to miss small towns along the way..

SFO to London on 08/05 - arrive London 08/06 - 2pm
London - 5 nights - train to
*Paris - 6 nights - day trips to Versailles or Strasbourg or Dijon?? - train to
*Amsterdam - 4 nights - day trip to Brussels or Den Haag or Groningen
Berlin - 4 nights
*Prague - 4 nights - day trip to Cesky Krumlov or Kutna Hora
Krakow - 3 nights? - day trip to Auschwitz
Budapest - 3 nights?
?Vienna - 4 nights - day trip to Bratislava
?Ljubljana - 3 nights?
?Zagreb/Spit - 4 nights?
Venice - 2 nights
?Florence - 2 nights
*Rome - 4 nights
?Amalfi Coast/ Sorrento/ Naples/ Capri - 5 or 6 nights? - fly to
?Greek Islands - 6 nights - or some other sunny retreat/ vacation of vacation - fly to
Barcelona - 3 nights
*Madrid - 4 nights
Sevilla - 2 nights
*Lisbon - 4 nights
Lisbon to SFO on Tuesday 10/20 @ 11:30am


as always, I look forward to your valuable comments/ suggestions/ critiques..
ciao-

allsf wrote:
* is 6 full days enough for Paris? I could do a day trip to Versailles and Strasbourg or Dijon.. any other better suggestions?

* should I make reservations for Amsterdam (train from Paris and accommodations) now? I've been told that's a tough town to get a last minute cheap room in.. is 4 nights enough for Amsterdam? too much? perhaps a day trip to Den Haag or Groningen? any other thoughts?

* it looks like I'll arrive in Amsterdam on a Monday.. and I think I'd rather spend a weekend there.. any suggestions of a great place to visit for a few days between Paris and Amsterdam?? Bruges.. Brussels.. Antwerp.. Rotterdam perhaps?? I hear Brussels is quite boring though..

SFO to London on 08/05 - arrive London 08/06 - 2pm
London - 5 nights - train to
*Paris - 6 nights - day trips to Versailles or Strasbourg or Dijon?? - train to
*Amsterdam - 4 nights - day trip to Brussels or Den Haag or Groningen
Berlin - 4 nights
*Prague - 4 nights - day trip to Cesky Krumlov or Kutna Hora
Krakow - 3 nights? - day trip to Auschwitz
Budapest - 3 nights?
?Vienna - 4 nights - day trip to Bratislava
?Ljubljana - 3 nights?
?Zagreb/Spit - 4 nights?
Venice - 2 nights
?Florence - 2 nights
*Rome - 4 nights
?Amalfi Coast/ Sorrento/ Naples/ Capri - 5 or 6 nights? - fly to
?Greek Islands - 6 nights - or some other sunny retreat/ vacation of vacation - fly to
Barcelona - 3 nights
*Madrid - 4 nights
Sevilla - 2 nights
*Lisbon - 4 nights
Lisbon to SFO on Tuesday 10/20 @ 11:30am


as always, I look forward to your valuable comments/ suggestions/ critiques..
ciao-

Since you're really wanting to do a lot of museums, 6 days in Paris is probably not enough but then again you could spend 6 months in the Louvre and still not see everything. A day trip to Versailles is certainly worth the trip though. Although you may want to get a ticket in advance as the museum ticket stand can take a good 2.5 hour chunk of time to get through during the summer.

I personally wouldn't worry with Brussels or Den Haag. Maybe Brugge. It's lovely. Amsterdam has a plethora of great places to visit that you could spend an extra day there. If you're worries about being too city-centric, I would suggest spending a few days outside of Paris in France. Paris is a great city but I love spending time in the Bordeaux region and Orleans. I'd highly recommend it if you have extra time and want a luxurious exploration that isn't so fast-paced. There's some great village cities outside of Prague and Budapest as well. And it's much cheaper there if you're worried about your budget.

I would recommend getting advanced reservations for Amsterdam if you know your dates. I've been fortunate and not so fortunate with last minute plans to Amsterdam.

Have a great, wonderful adventure! Hope this information helps. Take it with a grain of salt.

metalchick,
thanks for the reply..

while I am interested in doing some museums during my trip.. they are not at all the main focus of my interest.. to me, going to sites.. walking around a village.. sitting on a cafe watching people walk by.. feeling the way the locals live is just as important as going to a museum.. I am also interested in checking some of the social and night scene as well.. particularly the gay scene..

thanks for the hint about Versailles.. although I've been there I am most certainly interested in a new visit.. and it's good to know that I could get a ticket in advance.. probably on the internet, right?

this time around I am going to focus my trip more in the Eastern and Southern countries - mainly trying to stretch my dollar and travel longer.. so I am only doing London, Paris and Amsterdam on the Northern countries as I absolutely would love to come back and revisit them..

I confess I still need to do some research about the Eastern places I want to visit.. but can't wait to get to Czech Slovakia!!! any suggestions of the little villages you have in mind??

Definitely some good tips on this thread. I'll just confirm that if you are going to Prague, you must try to pay a visit to Kutna Hora and Cesky Krumlov, especially the former if you are short on time. For Cesky Krumlov you really need a couple of nights there because it's quite far from Prague but half way between there and Vienna. It's a beautiful town with great accomodation options and makes for a wonderful place to relax too.

I posted an article on my blog a while ago about other places to visit in CZ which you might be interested in. It's currently on the front page of the site in my sig.

Dakana,

thanks for the thoughtful reply..
I've been hearing a lot of great things about Prague, Kutna Hora, and Cesky Krumlov.. I'll do my best to visit then all..

by the way, great blog you got going on.. I look forward to reading it through later on when I have some free time..

have a great day!!!

Regarding the Italy portion of your itinerary, I think if you're really into museums - and not already museum'd out by the time you get to Italy - then Florence and Rome are both top-notch destinations. With a couple days in Florence you could hit the biggies (Uffizi, Accademia, Bargello), but you'll want to book tickets in advance if you can to avoid waiting in a long line - especially at the Uffizi. And with four days in Rome, one of which I'd suggest you spend touring the Vatican, you'll only get to see a fraction of the city's museums but you can pick the best few.

Venice is sublime (good for you for spending the night), but it's expensive, so if you need to cut back somewhere you could probably get by with a one night stay there. You'd still get to see it in the early morning and later at night after the day-trippers leave, which is when the city's at its best.

I'm not sure I'd do 5-6 nights in the Amalfi/Naples area, but if you're needing a beach-y break after the cities then perhaps that's fine. In Naples, don't miss the Archaeological Museum; and you could easily do a day-trip to Pompeii and Herculaneum from Naples, too.

Let me know if you've got more Italy questions; you can read the various city guides to each of these places on the BootsnAll Italy travel guide - links to the city guides are below.
Venice Travel Guide
Florence Travel Guide
Rome Travel Guide
Naples Travel Guide

UPDATE!!

first of all, thank you all for all the great advice and help..

thanks JessieS for all the precious tips about Italy.. I'll take it all in and am most certain they will be handy when I am about to make decisions about Italy.. I've been to Venice, Florence, Pisa and Rome in the past - long time ago though.. 1991!! - so I'll have to think carefully about wether I want to go back to all those places or explore others.. I'd say I definitely want to go back and explore more of Rome though..

on another note..

I've decided to go ahead and book a hotel in Amsterdam just to be safe.. I might rethink this and choose for a day or too in Rotterdam on my way from Paris before I buy my train ticket.. - is it worth it?? for how long?.. how about as a day trip from Amsterdam?.. doable?.. - .. or I might just go straight from Paris to Amsterdam.. I'll be already coming from a weekend in London and one in Paris.. so it will be a nice break in a beautiful city to get some rest.. let me see what you guys suggest..

a few quick updates about my trip.. sort of where I am right now with it..

- got plane ticket SFO/London - Lisbon/SFO - http://www.united.com
- reserved hostel for 5 nights in London.. L$20/night - http://www.gayhostel.co.uk
- bought eurostar ticket London/Paris - L$51 - http://www.eurostar.com
- reserved hotel for 6 nights in Paris.. E$30/night - http://appihotel.com/
- reserved hotel for 4 nights in Amsterdam.. E$35/night - http://rembrandtsquarehotel.com/

now I am gonna start looking for train tickets to go from Paris to Amsterdam.. I think I should make a decision about Rotterdam first.. also, not sure wether I want to book train and accommodation for Berlin just yet or wait till I get to Amsterdam.. and just go with the flow from there.. it'll still be August though... should I be concerned about missing all the best deals for transportation and accommodation??

thanks!!